Adding fruit to berliner weisse

[Joeneugs]

I know there are multiple threads on berliners right now, but this is a more specific question...

I have a berliner that i'm planning on adding some pineapple and then dry hopping with Sorachi Ace. I did a sour wort process and then fermented with German ale yeast and Brett Brux pitched together (no starter for either one) SG was 1.034 and its been stable at 1.010 for a few days now.

I obviously would like to drive that FG down a little further, so should I just toss the pineapple in the primary or transfer to secondary? I would like to leave it on the fruit for around two weeks. I'm thinking I may get more activity in the primary with the yeast, but not sure if this would cause any other problems. Any advice would be appreciated!

 

[Oldsock]

With the Brett in the beer, I’d probably rack to secondary and give it a few months before adding the fruit. When the gravity stabilizes (you have a stable gravity from the ale yeast, Brett probably hasn't really gotten going yet), you can add the fruit, wait a few weeks, then dry hop. That'll give you fresh fruit and hop characters when the beer is ready to drink.

 

[Calder]

I don't know the chemistry, or really what is going on, but I remember reading somewhere that the products of Lactic action on the wort can make the gravity increase. You might not have as much sugar left as you think.

 

[Brewing_on_the_Internet]

I don't know the chemistry, or really what is going on, but I remember reading somewhere that the products of Lactic action on the wort can make the gravity increase. You might not have as much sugar left as you think.

I've also read this. How much does the Lactic acid change the specific gravity?
Does someone have a way to compute the specific gravity minus lactic acid with equipment an average homebrewer would have?

 

[TNGabe]

I don't know the chemistry, or really what is going on, but I remember reading somewhere that the products of Lactic action on the wort can make the gravity increase. You might not have as much sugar left as you think.

I've also read this. How much does the Lactic acid change the specific gravity?
Does someone have a way to compute the specific gravity minus lactic acid with equipment an average homebrewer would have?

I think that's only the case with sick or ropey beer.

 

[Oldsock]

I don't know the chemistry, or really what is going on, but I remember reading somewhere that the products of Lactic action on the wort can make the gravity increase. You might not have as much sugar left as you think.

Got a source? Maybe you are thinking of acetic acid production (which takes in oxygen from the atmosphere)? Not sure it does, but I could at least theoretically understand how it could raise the gravity slightly. Lactic acid production shouldn't have much impact on gravity, plenty of sour beers finish down near 1.000. My Berliners tend to end up around 1.002-1.004.

 

[smokinghole]

Even with lab precision hydrometers it'd be tough to see a gravity effect from lactic acid. Considering the most sour of sours range between 1% and 1.5% lactic acid that is a small contribution to gravity considering the density of 88% lactic acid is only 1.21g/ml compared to water at, well, 1.0g/ml.

 

[Joeneugs]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Oldsock, would it be ok to add the fruit as I rack to secondary? I ask because I'm afraid of oxidation if I add it later. I only have a 5 gallon carboy and I imagine there will be a lot of splashing. Also, wouldn't the sugars from the pineapple kickstart the brett faster?

 

[Oldsock]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Oldsock, would it be ok to add the fruit as I rack to secondary? I ask because I'm afraid of oxidation if I add it later. I only have a 5 gallon carboy and I imagine there will be a lot of splashing. Also, wouldn't the sugars from the pineapple kickstart the brett faster?

My preference is to rack onto fruit when the beer is only a couple months from being ready. That way it is still really fresh when the beer is ready to drink.

 

[sweetcell]

My preference is to rack onto fruit when the beer is only a couple months from being ready. That way it is still really fresh when the beer is ready to drink.

months? or did you mean weeks?

 

[TexasBrew88]

Months. Brett is like the skinny kid that keeps eating until it's eaten almost everything (they love big sugars). Sac is like the fat kid that only eats dessert (simple sugars are their friends. Their only friends in the world... Eat that ho-ho, little s. cervaiciae...). The aromas and flavors it develps are glorious and worth the wait, especially after bottling. I've got a sour raspberry chocolate stout going, and it's just getting the brettanomyces aroma/flavor to it at 6 months.

 

[Oldsock]

months? or did you mean weeks?

After aging for a few months and then adding whole fruit (even frozen-defrosted), it is unrealistic to expect the remaining microbes to finish off all the sugars in a couple weeks. If you want to take a few gravity readings and chart the progress you can, but I think just waiting 6-10 weeks is easier. Fruit flavors fall off over a couple years, no need to push things too fast.

Last night I racked half a batch of Berliner onto a few pounds of rhubarb, excited to see how it turns out!

 

[Joeneugs]

Would it be better to rack a third time into another container on top of the fruit or just add the fruit into the secondary on top of the beer? Which would introduce more oxygen?

 

[Oldsock]

Would it be better to rack a third time into another container on top of the fruit or just add the fruit into the secondary on top of the beer? Which would introduce more oxygen?

I tend to rack. I do lots of split batches, so I'll bottle half the beer, and rack the rest onto fruit in a 3 gallon carboy. You could purge with CO2 if you wanted to be extra careful, but I've never had an issue skipping that.

 

[tgmartin000]

After aging for a few months and then adding whole fruit (even frozen-defrosted), it is unrealistic to expect the remaining microbes to finish off all the sugars in a couple weeks. If you want to take a few gravity readings and chart the progress you can, but I think just waiting 6-10 weeks is easier. Fruit flavors fall off over a couple years, no need to push things too fast.

Last night I racked half a batch of Berliner onto a few pounds of rhubarb, excited to see how it turns out!

How long are you going to let it sit on the fruit?

Also, off-topic question - does lacto del not form a pellicle?

 

[Oldsock]

How long are you going to let it sit on the fruit?

Also, off-topic question - does lacto del not form a pellicle?

Probably ready to go by now, rhubarb looks pretty dead. I’ll get around to it soon.

Lacto doesn't produce much of a pellicle, just a little scum, although I rarely use it without Brett.

 

[Joeneugs]

I'm glad this thread got resurrected today.

I ended up racking to secondary without the fruit. It's been in there for two months now, and I saw very little change in the gravity. It went down from 1.010 to 1.008 during that time.

Yesterday I decided I would just throw the fruit in there and see what happens. I added about 5 lbs. of fresh diced pineapple (juice and all) through the neck of the carboy and flushed with CO2 afterwards.... The sample I took had a distinctive odor of ethyl acetate. I picked it up in the flavor too. Not horribly offensive, but definitely off.... not much brett character, if any.

Is it possible that the brett will absorb this over time? I've heard that once you get ethyl acetate after the bulk of fermentation is complete, it's hard to get rid of. I'm a little surprised the brett hasn't had much of an effect after two months. I did have to drop the temp in my fermentation chamber to about 47 F for a couple weeks while I fermented my bock... maybe the drop in temperature through things off? I'm worried this could be a dumper. Anyone know what could be the cause of this?

 

[sweetcell]

I ended up racking to secondary without the fruit. It's been in there for two months now, and I saw very little change in the gravity. It went down from 1.010 to 1.008 during that time.

that sounds about right, the brett is still working slowly in there. it might take a few more months before you reach FG.

I'm a little surprised the brett hasn't had much of an effect after two months. I did have to drop the temp in my fermentation chamber to about 47 F for a couple weeks while I fermented my bock... maybe the drop in temperature through things off?

2 months isn't that long, give the brett time to do its thing.

your drop in temp most likely put the brakes on the brett. so while the brett has been in there for 2 months, it has had more like a month to actually do anything (you shouldn't count that time at 47*F, and the time after as it warmed up). you're expecting too much from the brett over such a short time.

i believe that brett can, over the long run, break down some ethyl acetate... but i'm not 100% sure. hopefully someone else can confirm/deny.

 

[Joeneugs]

Ok, well that's somewhat comforting.

I'll move it indoors somewhere to keep it a bit warmer. Will it be ok to leave it on the fruit for another few months?

 

[ChadChaney]

I have a Saison fermented with the Saison Dupont strain that sat in primary for 3months, then I added Brett B for 9 months and then added Saturn peaches. That was 6 months ago, tasted yesterday, awesome, funky, tart and slightly fruity. Fresh fruit has faded some, but still really nice. Give your beer time, Brett is slow(ish).