A Question On Carbonation......

[Damon Chango]

I'm new to this forum and new to brewing beer, I'm only on my 4th batch. I do have a question on carbonation. I force carbonate my beer in the keg I've used the corny keg top that has a silicon hose and a aeration Stone on the bottom on one and it worked pretty good it was on a Pale Ale, and on the Hefeweizen I used a copy of a Blichmann Engineering QuickCarb, that I made. My buddy who is a Hefe drinker brewed this beer me and when it came out of the tap, his immediate reaction was “it didn't have enough carbonation” so I recarbed the beer by setting the regulator pressure to 20 psi and let it set for a week so. After raising up the carbonation level the foam started happening.


The carbonation range is supposed to be between 2.60 to 4.00 C02 volume for this beer, which is 12 to 26 psi at 36F. No matter what I do I get foam. My line leading from the Keg to the tap is 10 ft in length and 3/16 ID. Calculating the resistance in the line I get 30 psi of total resistance. In theory I should be able to run the keg at almost 30 psi with no problem. Is that a correct statement or am I looking at it all wrong? Are my line still too short for the pressure? I have even tried a flow restricting tap and nothing. I can slow it down to almost a small stream and I still get foam, its better but still a lot of foam. I added two fans into my keezer to circulate the air, in thinking maybe the beer in the line was warmer then the beer in the keg, causing the C02 to come out of solution. I'm not sure, I can't figure it out.

Any help would be appreciated.

Damon

 

[GoeHaarden]

Try using the mikesoltys calculator to balance your lines.

Never used one of those carbonation lids, but I've never had an issue setting to serving pressure and waiting 10ish days. Perhaps give set and forget it method a try, it's more controllable and reliable IMO.

The fans are a must and I feel like I just read someone had like a 15F difference from the top and bottom of their keezer make the CO2 to leave solution in the lines without a fan...

 

[Bubbles2]

Your P.S.I sounds a bit high according to this link
https://www.brewersfriend.com/keg-carbonation-calculator/#

Your hose length to double check
http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/

If your friend keeps complaining, you might have to check on a new friend. LOL JK

 

[Amadeo38]

It was my understanding that the carbonation stones are for initial carbonation and not long-term storage and serving. When I attempted to keep mine in the keg after initial carb, it also resulted in an under-carbed beer after some time. This is what happened when your friend came over and said it was not carbed enough. Increasing the PSI to 20 for a week likely overcarbonated the beer. You’ll probably need to find a happy medium, get some of the co2 to come out of solution, then once you do, set it to 10psi without the carb stone attached (typical serving pressure) for serving.

tl;dr - carb stone not typically for long-term storage and serving, results in less carb dissolved in solution for serving after initial burst carb, 20psi adjustment was probably too high and overcarbed your beer.

 

[Damon Chango]

Thanks for the reply's. I did check out Mike Solty's site his states 17.15 feet for a 10 second pour, and 9.14 for a 7 second pour, it's a very cool tool. I purchased a couple books one is How to Brew by John Palmer and the Draft Beer Quality Manual 4th edition. Both books have different friction loss values for the same size tubing. One states 2 PSI per foot the other 3 PSI, so that's 10 to a 6.6 foot length. Also the DBQM states the correct pour speed is 8 seconds per pint (Mike says 10 seconds), so according to Mike's calculator I need another foot and a half at an 8 second pour or 7.14 feet for a 10 second pour. I just ordered another 50 feet of tubing from Amazon. It should be here on Friday, I'll swap it out and let you know.

Damon

 

[Damon Chango]

According to the carbonation calculator posted above a 3.5 volumes of Co2 @ 36F is 20.3 PSI and is almost the beginning of the scale for a German wheat beer. That's why I set the reg to 20 PSI, am I not understanding this correctly?

 

[Amadeo38]

According to the carbonation calculator posted above a 3.5 volumes of Co2 @ 36F is 20.3 PSI and is almost the beginning of the scale for a German wheat beer. That's why I set the reg to 20 PSI, am I not understanding this correctly?

You’re more informed than me on the subject, so it’s entirely possible. What I forgot to ask was, did you turn it back to 10psi for serving afterward? I bet your remedy of longer tubing plus turning down the serving pressure will do the trick. Oh, and yes to keeping a fan blowing around inside the keezer.

 

[Pkrd]

If the stone is at the bottom of the keg it will need about another PSI to push past the hydrostatic pressure. Is the stones flow resistance significant?

 

[cswant88]

4th batch and you’ve already got that set up, you really went all in. Try a longer line and see if it helps.

 

[Damon Chango]

Thanks for the reply's, the wetting pressure of the carbonation stone is about 4 PSI (the best that I can tell from my gauge). The system I used on the Hefe was my QuickCarb copy, the stone doesn't set at the bottom of the keg, it is in a tee that is under pressure from the pump. Yeah my wife gives me the stink eye every time I get a new project or hobby. The new tubing should be this evening I'll let you know if it works.

Damon

 

[Damon Chango]

Still nothing but foam...... I'm not sure, but I bet I can put 50 foot of line on and it wouldn't make a difference. I'm going to have a glass or two of scotch and ponder this. It just goes to show, you can read all the books you want but nothing is better then learning from experience. I'm going to turn down the pressure to around 15 PSI and see what happens (my buddy will just have to deal with it). One other thought I had.... is tap temperature, is an ambient temperature of 78F to warm. It did seem to pour better the longer a ran it. I stopped pouring after the second glass of foam. All I could think about was, I was wasting a lot beer.

Damon

 

[Amadeo38]

I'm going to turn down the pressure to around 15 PSI and see what happens (my buddy will just have to deal with it).

Mentioned before, but serving pressure is around 10psi. Turn down the reg to 10 then purge the keg. Then try a pour.

 

[Ontop27]

Perlick flow control. Never worry again my lines are like 3'long and i can set the pressure to whatever i want.

 

[NeoBrew]

Still nothing but foam...... I'm not sure, but I bet I can put 50 foot of line on and it wouldn't make a difference. I'm going to have a glass or two of scotch and ponder this. It just goes to show, you can read all the books you want but nothing is better then learning from experience. I'm going to turn down the pressure to around 15 PSI and see what happens (my buddy will just have to deal with it). One other thought I had.... is tap temperature, is an ambient temperature of 78F to warm. It did seem to pour better the longer a ran it. I stopped pouring after the second glass of foam. All I could think about was, I was wasting a lot beer.

Damon

There is equal parts science and witchcraft in getting kegging figured out! There are lots of varying opinions on the best solution as well.

I've never tried carbing anything to 20 psi. I think that would introduce lots of issues. I typically carb to 14psi. No carb stones, or quick carbs, just set it and forget it. After 7 days the beer is drinkable if not a little light on carbonation. By 2 weeks it's perfect. I generally just use 12ft lines which might be overkill, but I don't mind waiting a few more seconds for a pour in exchange for a better quality pour.

Once you over carb a beer it takes a LOT of work to get it back down to correct pressure. You would need to reduce pressure or take it off CO2 entirely then purge the keg to zero pressure in the head space repeatedly for several days to get the dissolved CO2 back out. Until you get it down to the desired serving pressure again it will tend to foam.

Another thing to try is examining your hardware. Bad poppets, quick connects etc can also introduce air into your system and cause foaming problems. I am still boggled that a leak in the keg/quick connect connection can introduce air into a pressurized system, but it apparently can happen.

 

[Damon Chango]

I do have a Intertap flow control tap on the Hefe, all it seems to do is slow the foam.

I started to purge the keg this morning, I'm turning it down to around 12 PSI which is the beginning Co2 volume of 2.67 @36F for a Hefe and see what happens if it is still to much I'll turn it down a little more. My Pale Ale is at 10 PSI for a volume of 2.47, the Porter is at 6 PSI for a volume of 2.09 which I haven't tried yet it is still carbonating in the keg. On the Porter I just pumped the Co2 into the keg and letting it sit there for awhile. The IPA is still in the fermentor.

I think your right on the witchcraft part because the more I read everyone is saying something slightly different, so I don't know which way to go. The reason I came to this forum was to learn what works from the people doing it. Below are pictures of the first and second pours. I keep you posted on the progress, thanks for everyone input. You have been more helpful then just reading books...

Damon

 

[Amadeo38]

I started to purge the keg this morning, I'm turning it down to around 12 PSI which is the beginning Co2 volume of 2.67 @36F for a Hefe and see what happens if it is still to much I'll turn it down a little more.

So the difference here is that the pressure you initially set the beer to is the pressure needed to get the co2 “to style”, and once it reaches that optimal level, you turn it down to a more appropriate serving pressure.

Your Hefe is likely already overcarbed, so like Neo mentioned in the previous post, it’s gonna take a bit to get the co2 out of solution before it stops foaming.

 

[NeoBrew]

So the difference here is that the pressure you initially set the beer to is the pressure needed to get the co2 “to style”, and once it reaches that optimal level, you turn it down to a more appropriate serving pressure.

Your Hefe is likely already overcarbed, so like Neo mentioned in the previous post, it’s gonna take a bit to get the co2 out of solution before it stops foaming.

I wouldn't agree with the concept of "serving pressure". I set to the desired carb level and leave it there. That is the point of longer lines, to balance out that higher pressure.

If you reduce below that pressure your keg will eventually stabilize at that lower 10psi pressure and the last part of your keg will be under-carbed.

 

[Damon Chango]

So once carbed to the desired Co2 volume say 3.50 or 20lbs for the Hefe, you then need to turn it down to a serving pressure of 10lbs? Wouldn't the Co2 that is in solution come out of solution because of the lower serving pressure, lowering the Co2 volume to 10 PSI?

 

[petemoss]

Eventually it would likely come out of solution at that lower pressure. So, you can always carb to high pressure, drop pressure to pour, increase pressure to maintain carb level. I actually do this on occasion when I want to fill a bottle for a club meeting or whatever. I'll drop from 12 down to 1, fill the bottle, then turn back to 12. That said, it seem like a terrible idea for a working tap system. Generally I would be in favor of longer lines, or maybe thinner lines. It just seems odd that you already have flow control faucets and long lines and are still having problems. However you did mention 78 degree tap temps. I don't know if that would cause the problem, but it could certainly contribute to it. How much of your serving line would you say is at room temp?

 

[Amadeo38]

I stand corrected, given that while my method would theoretically solve your problem, it does have the downside of having to continually change the pressure to avoid losing carb down to 10psi.

Have you checked the poppets on your keg posts for debris that might cause turbulence? Has this line successfully been used before without foam at lower pressure? If not, could there be a place where air is being drawn into the line?

 

[Damon Chango]

Everything is brand new on my system. I don't think there is a leak sucking air but I will check. What I may also do is check the guage. Maybe I have a faulty gauge and it reading lower then it should, and I'm actually carbing at a higher pressure then I think I am.

 

[camonick]

So the difference here is that the pressure you initially set the beer to is the pressure needed to get the co2 “to style”, and once it reaches that optimal level, you turn it down to a more appropriate serving pressure.

Your Hefe is likely already overcarbed, so like Neo mentioned in the previous post, it’s gonna take a bit to get the co2 out of solution before it stops foaming.

His “serving” pressure needs to be the same as the pressure required to maintain the proper volumes of CO2 he desires for the style he is serving, otherwise the carbonation of the beer will eventually equalize to whatever pressure and temperature combination it’s set to. The only way to counteract that pressure is with the proper length of line to balance his system. There are a bunch of different “calculators” out there that can get you close... Experimenting with line length should eventually balance the system assuming there are no other problems with his equipment. I live in Colorado at 4500 feet and carb my beer with 14-15 psi. I use 16-18’ of 3/16” beverage tubing with standard Intertap faucets and rarely get foamy pours.
If the OP has his pressure in the keg stabilized at 20 psi, I would recommend a minimum of 20-25’ of 3/16” tubing to produce a decent pour. One other thing to check is the o-ring on the liquid dip tube. I’ve read quite a few “foamy pour” threads that were resolved by replacing that o-ring.

Edit: posts above were posted as I typed my response.

 

[snarf7]

What I typically do is set it to 40 psi and leave it exactly 24 hours. That will get you about 80-85% of the way there. Then purge the keg and set the pressure to serving pressure and it should be right where you want it in a couple days

 

[Damon Chango]

Well here is the update. First off I had an awesome time at Knotfest in San Bernardino watching Behemoth, Gojira, Volbeat, and Slipknot. What a show, and the people watching was interesting also. I can't believe it was 104F out and people were wearing their Slipknot masks all day......, if you know Slipknot you know what I'm talking about,,, at home it was 114F so we were enjoining a cool spell, but I digress.... Before I left for the weekend I purged the keg several times and turned the pressure down to 12 PSI so that should have given me a volume of Co2 at 2.67. But when I got back my keg balanced out at about 18 PSI for a volume of Co2 at 3.24. It was perfect..... no foam. So, 20 feet of 3/16 line and 18 PSI worked for me. It's hard to believe that 2 PSI could make a deference. We tapped the the Porter after almost two weeks of carbing, it came out great. One thing I learned was a carb stone or a Blichmann is not needed if you have patience and can wait to taste you creation don't waste the money. If you cant wait they are useful tools. I still need to figure out where everything went south, because from what read I was on the right track, I think it's that witchcraft crap............

 

[Bubbles2]

So the PSI was a bit high

 

[Alex4mula]

I have used a carb stone from day one. Got perfect carbonation in 15-20hrs. There is a process to use it. Once carb you change the gas of course to the gas port. I have 5’ lines and no fan. Never a problem. Don’t discard it. Learn to use it.

 

[Tim H]

Glad you were able to fix it. I just kegged my first drinkable beer after jumping in balls deep to brewing about a month ago. (my wife also shakes her head and has unkind words when I pick up new hobbies). The first beer was over-carbonated and had a bitter taste (co2 bite) because I tried to force carb it too quickly. I picked up a carb stone last weekend and had a properly carbonated beer in less than 24 hours. I think it is a valuable tool that can help get your beer ready faster without too much involvement.

PS, I love how foamy those beers were. It looks like a milkshake.