60 min IBU when doing hopstand

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Ilan34

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Hey guys.

Trying to finalize an IPA recipe. Struggling with how much IBU to account for. I'll be doing an hour long hopstand, half of that with temps above 175. My OG will be 1.072. I'd like to aim for 70-80 IBU total.

As of now, I've got 31 IBU coming from the 60 minute addition. The software gives all my knockout and hopstand hops an IBU of zero, which is definitely not going to be the case. Calculated, it says I have 61 IBU total.

Any insight on adjusting the 60 min addition when accounting for a massive hopstand?

Thanks!

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the brewersfriend online calculators are much more sophisticated with the hopstand additions.

my last recipe had 15 ibu from the 60 minute addition. Apx. 5 oz of high AA whirpool hops added another 65 ibu for a total of around 80.
 
Thanks for the replies, guys. I'm using iBrewmaster v. 1. I'll check out that article (although it sounds familiar, I may have already read it a couple of months ago).

I'll also check out the brewersfriend calculator. I'm using high alpha hops all the way through, so I don't want to wind up with a bitterness bomb (Azacca, Simcoe, El Dorado).

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Home Brew mobile app
 
I'm not seeing an option to enter hops as hopstand additions.

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choose hopback or whirlpool

Hmm. Maybe the mobile version is different from the desktop version? Here's what I'm seeing:

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Ah! Never mind. Looks like the ibu calculations are more complex in the recipe calculator and the IBU calculator hasn't caught up yet. I'll have to play around with it. Thanks!

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Home Brew mobile app
 
I can't give you any help on the calculations, but I've been doing hopstands in all my hoppy beers lately, mostly 50min but some 30min. Besides questioning the amount of bittering from the whirlpool hops, you also have to wonder if the 60min addition is really the bitterness of a 110 or 90min?

I just started going for it and have figured out a system that seems to work. You definitely get plenty of extra bitterness from hopstands but also I think the intensity of hop flavor gives you a higher perception of bitterness. My method for pale ale type beers is to aim for about half to 2/3 of the total bitterness to come from the 60min addition. Then I usually don't add anything else to the boil until flameout.

For DIPAs, you really are just going for max bitterness but I've tried two opposite methods that both ended up similarly bitter. For one, I did:

14g Columbus - 60min
28g Mt Hood - 10min
28g Centennial - 0min
28g Amarillo - 0min
28g Simcoe - (-25)min
28g Amarillo - (-25)min

To clarify, those last two oz went into the kettle 25 minutes into the whirlpool and then I continued to whirlpool for 25 more min. For another DIPA I did:

(all additions 28g)
Columbus - 60min
Simcoe - 45min
Simcoe - 30min
Centennial - 15min
Mosaic - 0min
Simcoe - 0min
Mosaic - (-25)min
Amarillo - (-25)min

Like I said, these were similarly bitter to each other but the second one definitely had more intense and complex hop flavor (wish I had cut down on the Simcoe a little - it was slightly too garlic/oniony).

Off the top of my head, in some recent pale ales where I've used a small charge of high alpha bittering hops, the weight is usually around 8-12g.

I hope this helps - you just gotta go for it. You're making a big beer, so it may be hard to get it too bitter. On the other hand, this might be a good opportunity to try a tiny addition like a half ounce at 60 and then see what you can really get out of the whirlpool. Good luck!
 
Actually was the Brewersfriend citations/notes that lead me to the BYO article. BF has you decide the percent isomerization you will get form the hopstand. They suggest 10% but believe it is equipment driven and will be different for different systems.

I use Beer Alchemy which adjusts ALL the additions for the hop stand / whirlpool which I think makes more sense. It also asks for the temperature of the whirlpool and the duration of the whirlpool.

For example I created a brew in brewers friend that had a 5 minute boil addition of 1oz a 9% AA hop that calculates out to 6.97 IBUs. Then I added a 0 minute whirlpool addition. Set utilization for the whirlpool addition at 10% as suggested. And that addition was calculated to give me 12.25 IBUs. My original addition is unchanged. How can the whirlpool hop be adding more bitterness than the 5 minute hop...which also goes though the whirlpool?

In Beer Alchemy, same beer, first addition contributes 7 IBU alone. But when I add the whirlpool addition and choose 20 min at 190F, I get 11.1 IBU from the whirlpool hop, and now 16.1 IBU from the 5 min addition hop.

I understand that these calculations are all just a starting point and are never going to really match the final product but I will say that the Beer Alchemy calc seems more realistic way to deal with whirlpool hops.
 
How can the whirlpool hop be adding more bitterness than the 5 minute hop...which also goes though the whirlpool?
I noticed that as well and have absolutely no answer. I try to use these tools to estimate and provide a framework of thinking.
 
Eric19312, I think it's assuming you take those hoops out. That's what I do, I use hop bags and take all my boil hoops out before the whirlpool. But I'd you aren't doing that, then that calculation must be incorrect
 
Eric19312, I think it's assuming you take those hoops out. That's what I do, I use hop bags and take all my boil hoops out before the whirlpool. But I'd you aren't doing that, then that calculation must be incorrect

I don't think it's assuming you take them out. I think it's just a relic from The Way that homebrewing was done - you boil for 60minutes and then start cooling. The software just hasn't been updated for the understanding that "5min" no longer necessarily means 5min of boiling - it means 5min of the hops being at isomerization temps.

Of course, utilization still depends on so much more. Does the vigor of a boil have more isomerization potential than a whirlpool that is also at 212 degrees?

I used to be so meticulous about calculating IBUs in my beers - then I realized that this is somewhat of a homebrewer mentality. I hear lots of interviews with pro brewers who talk about bittering like they have a pretty good idea of how much they need to add to a beer and just go with it. They can correct the next time around.

So now I just look at old batches, make notes about if I felt the beer was bitter enough, and I just use the old HBU method of figuring out how much to put in.
 
Hey guys.

Trying to finalize an IPA recipe. Struggling with how much IBU to account for. I'll be doing an hour long hopstand, half of that with temps above 175. My OG will be 1.072. I'd like to aim for 70-80 IBU total.

As of now, I've got 31 IBU coming from the 60 minute addition. The software gives all my knockout and hopstand hops an IBU of zero, which is definitely not going to be the case. Calculated, it says I have 61 IBU total.

Any insight on adjusting the 60 min addition when accounting for a massive hopstand?

Thanks!

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Home Brew mobile app

You can make the question a moot point by merely dropping your stand temps down below 170F, no DMS, no further isomerization of the AAs. I think there's a misconception that hop stands need heat, but they don't need that much heat. You're extracting oils from the leaf, which even soaking them at room temp will do....not isomerizing acids trying to get IBUs.

Just my. .02...someone will say DMS is an unfounded worry, but I have tasted DMS in ales at several competitions I have judged..and have had that taste confirmed by more experienced/knowledgeable judges every time. So...your mileage may vary.
 
I don't think it's assuming you take them out. I think it's just a relic from The Way that homebrewing was done - you boil for 60minutes and then start cooling. The software just hasn't been updated for the understanding that "5min" no longer necessarily means 5min of boiling - it means 5min of the hops being at isomerization temps.

Of course, utilization still depends on so much more. Does the vigor of a boil have more isomerization potential than a whirlpool that is also at 212 degrees?

I used to be so meticulous about calculating IBUs in my beers - then I realized that this is somewhat of a homebrewer mentality. I hear lots of interviews with pro brewers who talk about bittering like they have a pretty good idea of how much they need to add to a beer and just go with it. They can correct the next time around.

So now I just look at old batches, make notes about if I felt the beer was bitter enough, and I just use the old HBU method of figuring out how much to put in.

Most of those commercial brewers you're referencing are doing double batches on a 15BBL system for 30BBL fermenters. You have that luxury when you do a double batch even on a HB scale. If the first batch is too bitter, then dial back the second batch and blend them into the fermenters, and vice versa if it's not bitter enough.
 
For hopstand hops, I put them in the software as 1 minute boil additions. Using Rager formula, this seems to work out pretty well for a 30 min hopstand (by my palette anyway).

I'm not sure that taking the hops out is going to halt bittering and conversion. The oils are already in the wort.
 
I'm not sure that taking the hops out is going to halt bittering and conversion. The oils are already in the wort.

I realize that now, it will halt some additional extraction of oils from the hoops but not the bittering like you said.
 
You can make the question a moot point by merely dropping your stand temps down below 170F, no DMS, no further isomerization of the AAs. I think there's a misconception that hop stands need heat, but they don't need that much heat. You're extracting oils from the leaf, which even soaking them at room temp will do....not isomerizing acids trying to get IBUs.

Just my. .02...someone will say DMS is an unfounded worry, but I have tasted DMS in ales at several competitions I have judged..and have had that taste confirmed by more experienced/knowledgeable judges every time. So...your mileage may vary.

I'll agree & disagree, agree that main goal is to extract oils but if you can do a good job in estimating IBUs from your whirlpool hop addition than you can cut back on your bittering addition as well...aka less hops required. If you go back to the one of the original studies that looked into the effects of whirlpool hopping done by several Rock Bottom breweries, you'll find that with hot hop stands, the 80minute whirlpool had a more intense hop flavor & aroma than a 50minute hop stand. That means that even at those temps (probably near or above 200F), hop oils are still being extracted and that you're still getting more oils into solution than driven off by vaporization. Also the hop stands only beers beat out the dry hop only beers for hop flavor showing that hot hop stands are superior to room temp for extracting flavor component oils.
I've done one experiment testing a two stage hop stand vs. a 175F whirlpool. Two stage had one addition at flameout and 30min whirlpool, then dropped temp to 175F and a second addition for 15mins whirlpool. The 175F whirlpool used same amount of hops for a 45 min whirlpool. Tasters were given blind tastings, 4 of 5 were able to distinguish in a triangle and 3 of 4 preferred the two stage. This is only one test and there were too many variables I did not fully take into account such as yeast pitching rates...ergo not really valid, but enough to convince me to stick with the hot hopstand for now.
 
I'll agree & disagree, agree that main goal is to extract oils but if you can do a good job in estimating IBUs from your whirlpool hop addition than you can cut back on your bittering addition as well...aka less hops required. If you go back to the one of the original studies that looked into the effects of whirlpool hopping done by several Rock Bottom breweries, you'll find that with hot hop stands, the 80minute whirlpool had a more intense hop flavor & aroma than a 50minute hop stand. That means that even at those temps (probably near or above 200F), hop oils are still being extracted and that you're still getting more oils into solution than driven off by vaporization. Also the hop stands only beers beat out the dry hop only beers for hop flavor showing that hot hop stands are superior to room temp for extracting flavor component oils.
I've done one experiment testing a two stage hop stand vs. a 175F whirlpool. Two stage had one addition at flameout and 30min whirlpool, then dropped temp to 175F and a second addition for 15mins whirlpool. The 175F whirlpool used same amount of hops for a 45 min whirlpool. Tasters were given blind tastings, 4 of 5 were able to distinguish in a triangle and 3 of 4 preferred the two stage. This is only one test and there were too many variables I did not fully take into account such as yeast pitching rates...ergo not really valid, but enough to convince me to stick with the hot hopstand for now.

While I don't follow your experiment (I'm sure it's interesting, but "distinguish in a triangle" lost me), I've done about 3 dozen hopstands personally w/ most common variations on the theme, so whatever I say is just experience talking, not any attempt at empiricism. The rock bottom experiment could easily be explained by the fact that one is 80min and one is 50min. It could easily have nothing to do with the heat.

I do believe you can probably extract more oils more quickly with heat, but I'm skeptical the difference is anything that a few more minutes of hopstanding at the lower temps wouldn't cancel out.

I'd bet you could get even more compelling results from a blind tasting of dryhopped vs. non-dryhopped beer...so if that's the case where's the evidence that it's the heat that is making the magic?

You have a point about maybe brewers doing hopstands WANT to get IBUs from their FO/WP Hops...but I doubt you'd save much hops since utilization is virtually nil in those FO additions vs. incredible utilization of hops in a 60-90 or FWH addition. Ultimately, I question how much hops you could actually save by doing this.

All that said. For me, it's not about IBUs it's about DMS, and I am highly sensitive to it. FWIW, a very well known SD brewery uses 190F hopstands and I have tasted DMS in one of their more in demand, High-end beers, and had this confirmed by a high ranking BJCP judge because I thought maybe I was just suffering from confirmation bias about DMS and high temp hopstands.

I've been down the DMS road though on another thread regarding hopstands, and I don't care to debate it. It's a fact that a large chunk of the population can't even taste DMS, so I learned in another thread not to argue with those who say it's a non-issue with two row.

Edit: sorry, there's a lot in your post so I keep coming back after trying to read it to glean more understanding: What's with the dryhop only is less then hopstand only? I don't buy that. If there's an actual study done then it had better try to control for the time since the dryhop. Clearly a freshly dryhopped beer is the best way to have a great hop aroma IMHO, and I believe this is exactly why the hoprocket exists. But I admit, that's opinion, and again point out, not empirical science.
 
Yeah, hopstands really aren't intended as a hop saving method. Quite the contrary. People and breweries intentionally late hop to maximize flavor. Balancing IBUs is a necessary part of the process only. Speaking in terms of only IBUs, hopstand are horribly wasteful used of hops. But the point is still valid. Early hops need to be adjusted to get an appropriate IBU level in the beer.

Note too that time in hopstands is doing more than oil extraction. There are real flavor compounds created only by the process of literally cooking the hops via the hot wort... traditionally 'flavor' additions. We want this exposure time also. The biggest benefit of the hopstand is the absence of the boil which greatly increases the boil off of desirable volatile compounds.

....Probably besting a dead horse here, but anyways.
 
Note too that time in hopstands is doing more than oil extraction. There are real flavor compounds created only by the process of literally cooking the hops via the hot wort... traditionally 'flavor' additions.

I had honestly never considered that. That actually adds more motivation (for me anyway) to decrease my hopstand temps to below isomerization levels so I can milk those hops for flavor. I still maintain one can "cook" the hops below isomerization and DMS temperature thresholds and get the best results without risking upsetting your IBU levels or...that other thing I keep mentioning. :)
 
Loving this discussion. So I downloaded Beer Alchemy (rationalized the cost by thinking about our tax refund). That's pretty great that it calculates the whirlpool hops but the interface is really lacking in comparison to iBrewmaster. Kinda frustrating. It'll probably get better the more I use it.

I'm also not sure about those ibu calculations, or the OG calculations. I entered a recipe that included a large hopstand. iBrewmaster had originally given it an ibu of 40,which of course I knew was low. However, Beer Alchemy spit out 129 IBU, and that seems way off.

I also could not get the calculated OG to agree with my real world results. It was giving me a number that was over 20 gravity points too high.
Anyway, sorry for the mini rant. I'm still mulling over all the discussion in regards to my hop schedule. I'll be brewing it the weekend after this one.

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If you work with it you will likely be happy with beer alchemy. I use it on both my mac and iphone. I am pretty dialed in on my system and using the software am usually able to hit fermenter volume, OG, and mash temp targets within acceptable margin of error. As for the hop calculations they should probably be considered a starting point. You need to brew, taste, adjust and brew again to get that right. But that is half the fun anyway...
 
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