5 weeks, no carbonation(not typical)

[anbowden]

I know there are alot of these types of question on the forum, and I've done my due diligence and searched and read other posts, including Revvy's bottling blog, but I still have a few questions.

I've been bottle conditioning for 5 weeks at 70 degrees. I tried a bottle at 2 weeks and 3 weeks, and both were flat. The firmness of the remaining two plastic bottles(i bottled mostly with 22 oz. glass bottles though) suggest there is still no carbonation. I moved one plastic bottle into a 72 degree room, after swirling the sediment off the bottom, and overnight it feels more firm to me. So here are my questions:
1. Is there any benefit to conditioning(not necessarily carbonating) at 70 degrees versus 72 degrees?
2. Any guess how much longer it will take to fully carb up at this point?
3. I took another bottle and put it in the fridge 48 hrs. ago because I had planned to sample one no matter the carbonation level. Is it okay to pull it back out of the fridge to help it carb up? Or will it ruin the beer?

Thanks,
Andy

 

[Obliviousbrew]

On #1 70 or 72 its the same I know a few breweries that actually bottle condition in a warmer room to speed up the procces myself I just let them sit at room temperature wathever that temp is.
#2 depends on what you brew and a lot of different variables. Yeast don't work on your schedule so just wait and see.
#3 it won't ruin your beer. Big changes in temperature are not very good for beers but I don't think it will ruin it

 

[TopherM]

What's the ABV of this beer? Higher ABV beers take exponentially longer to carb than lower ABV beers.

It was likely the swirling of the sediment that restarted your carbonation. It sounds like the yeast might be sluggish for some reason, and you need to resuspend them. Swirl each and every bottle and give it another few weeks.

There is no substantial difference between 70F and 72F when it comes to carbonation. Heat is a catalyst to carbonation up to about 110F, but a SLOWWWWer carbonation is a cleaner carbonation, and 68-70ish is really ideal.

 

[anbowden]

Its a 5 gallon NB Scottish 80 shilling ale.
OG: 1.047
FG: 1.008
Abv: 5.1%
4 weeks in primary, then bottled.

I batch primed using corn sugar. I used 1.5 tablespoons which should yield 1.08 volumes CO2. Its a pretty low CO2 volume, but that's what the style calls for.

Thanks,
Andy

 

[anbowden]

Its a 5 gallon NB Scottish 80 shilling ale.
OG: 1.047
FG: 1.008
Abv: 5.1%
4 weeks in primary, then bottled.

I batch primed using corn sugar. I used 1.5 tablespoons which should yield 1.08 volumes CO2. Its a pretty low CO2 volume, but that's what the style calls for.

The 1.5 T of dextrose seemed low to me, especially considering the recipe recommends 2/3 cup(10.67 T, about 7 times more than I used). The recipe's 2/3 cup would yield 2.6 volumes CO2. But I double and triple checked my sugar usage based on two different bottle priming calculators online, Screwey Brewer's and Tastybrew.com's.
So what did I do wrong?

Thanks,
Andy

 

[Revvy]

...(i bottled mostly with 22 oz. glass bottles though) suggest there is still no carbonation.

Remember, a pint or a 22 ouncer usually takes LONGER than it's comparable 12 ounce bottle. And when we talk about the 3 weeks, that refers to 12 ounce average gravity beers.....and the minimum at that.

So, let's say in reality a 12 ounce bottle of your beer would take 4 weeks....your 22 ounce bottle may take 6 weeks or more.

I can't repeat this enough. There's very few carbonation issues on here, or in brewing that aren't simply the result of impatience on the part of the brewer. It's a pretty foolproof process. You add sugar, the yeast eats it, farts co2 and the gas carbs the beer...over a period of time. But that time is dependant on gravity of the beer, energeticness of the yeast, temp of the beer (which is one of the factor contributing to energeticness of the yeast, AND the size of the bottles.

But if you added the correct amount of sugar....your beer WILL bottle. Even for a lower style carbed beer. Though it might simply be a level you're not used to?

 

[zachattack]

Chances are you won't notice 1.08 volumes of CO2, I think that's what's going on here. That's not much more than what is naturally dissolved in the beer post fermentation.

 

[anbowden]

So, let's say in reality a 12 ounce bottle of your beer would take 4 weeks....your 22 ounce bottle may take 6 weeks or more.

Thanks for the reply Revvy! I understand my 22 oz. bottles will take longer, but I didn't think it would take twice as long as the status quo. I guess I've gotten unrealistic expectations from my research. I feel like I've been more patient than the average bear; I'm coming up on 7 weeks in a couple days.
You mentioned the "energeticness of the yeast", what do you mean by that? Does it have to do the with FG of the beer?

Do you think the beer kit sellers recommending a high level of sugar so the beer will carbonate quicker?

Chances are you won't notice 1.08 volumes of CO2, I think that's what's going on here. That's not much more than what is naturally dissolved in the beer post fermentation.

The last bottle I tried at 5 weeks was totally flat, no hint of carbonation in the beer, but there was a tiny, tiny hiss when I opened it.
Why would Scottish Ale have a typical CO2 volume of 0.75-1.3 if it's barely noticeable? I've drank Scottish Ale before and it certainly had noticeable carbonation.

Thanks for all the replies!
Andy

 

[amandabab]

Why would Scottish Ale have a typical CO2 volume of 0.75-1.3 if it's barely noticeable? I've drank Scottish Ale before and it certainly had noticeable carbonation.

sometimes the people that write these priming calculators just make crap up.

 

[zachattack]

sometimes the people that write these priming calculators just make crap up.

Seriously. If you're at 20 degrees C, you'll already have 0.86 volumes of CO2 in the beer after fermentation. 1 volume of CO2 is essentially flat.

 

[anbowden]

Seriously. If you're at 20 degrees C, you'll already have 0.86 volumes of CO2 in the beer after fermentation. 1 volume of CO2 is essentially flat.

Well now I feel like an idiot for targeting 1.08 volumes of CO2. John Palmer has British ales at 1.5-2.0 so maybe that's what I should've targeted.
A couple more questions then:
1. What is the unit of measure for "volumes of CO2"? I don't understand what it means other than it's the amount of carbonation. I'm missing a frame of reference.
2. What can I do with my beer that's currently sitting in the bottles? Should I uncap them and add carbonation tabs and then re-cap?
3. In Revvy's bottling blog he says that eventually beer will carbonate with no added sugar. How long would that take(ballpark)?

Thanks again,
Andy

 

[zachattack]

Here's a good thread from a while back:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/volumes-co2-105955/

A volume of CO2 is defined as one unit volume of CO2 per unit volume of beer at 20 degrees C, at atmospheric pressure (1 atm). So if you have 5 gallons of beer at 20 deg C with 5 gallons of ambient pressure CO2 dissolved in there, you have one volume of CO2. The unit "volume of CO2" is independent of temperature and pressure, but you need the reference conditions of 20 degrees C / 1 atm since both beer and CO2 have very different densities at different temperatures/pressures. If that makes any sense. So if you know your beer has one volume of CO2 and it's in a closed vessel (keg, bottle, etc) and you change the temperature, it still has one volume of CO2.

You can use Henry's Law to calculate how many volumes of CO2 you'll have under different conditions, this is what the carbonation charts for kegging are based on. If you want to get nerdy you can check out the calculation I did in that thread. Let me know if you have any other questions!

Otherwise, yes, you might want to add some carb drops. I think if the beer was finished when you bottled it, unless you have an infection / wild yeast it's not going to carbonate on its own.

 

[anbowden]

Thanks for the explanation(and link).
I'm really clueless on the frame of reference of volumes of CO2(What's high and what's low?). I found the following link a little helpful:
http://www.mashspargeboil.com/achieving-the-right-carbonation-in-your-home-brew-beer/
It also has volumes CO2 for different beer styles, which don't match tastybrew or screweybrewer. I'm inclined not to trust their lists at this point, not that I'm trying to be negative at all toward the founders of the websites. I've only brewed a few times though. I suppose it's possible my beers will have carbed up a little more in the past 2 weeks to the point which it's a little noticeable. I'll try one this week(7 weeks) and report back on the 1.03 volumes of CO2.

From other forums I've found, this inconsistency is widespread and a little bothersome to me.
http://www.tastybrew.com/forum/thread/174040
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/hefeweizen-co2-volume-argument-224163/
http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=105075

The list from mashspargeboil looks a little more conservative overall, and at the moment I'm inclined to start using it as my trustworthy source. I've got a Dunkelweizen ready to bottle and I'm going to go with 2.9 volumes.

Thanks,
Andy

 

[zachattack]

First and foremost, I'll say: carbonate to your tastes! Some people like fizzy beer, some people like it almost flat. Unless you're sending your beer off to a competition and need it to be exactly to style I wouldn't stress it too much, if you're happy with it that's all that matters.

Experimenting with different carb levels is much easier to do in a keg, but you should start playing around to see what you like. Most beer styles will be fine at ~2.5 vol, and I think most people just dump the priming sugar in without worrying too much. That's certainly a reasonable approach and there's nothing wrong with it.

To "calibrate" yourself, think about (or try!) some different commercial examples. A british bitter or mild should be pretty low on the carbonation level, and a proper saison or tripel should be pretty high. Treat yourself and pick up a Westmalle Tripel, that's got a thick glass bottle and I think is carbed close to 4 volumes. The bubbly, almost champagne-like carbonation adds to the spiciness.

In general, I carb most beers around 2.3-2.5 volumes. I aim for a little higher on a hefe or other German wheat, and I aim a little higher on Belgian styles. You probably don't want to go above 3 volumes in a standard glass bottle for safety reasons.

 

[anbowden]

First and foremost, I'll say: carbonate to your tastes! Some people like fizzy beer, some people like it almost flat. Unless you're sending your beer off to a competition and need it to be exactly to style I wouldn't stress it too much, if you're happy with it that's all that matters.

Experimenting with different carb levels is much easier to do in a keg, but you should start playing around to see what you like. Most beer styles will be fine at ~2.5 vol, and I think most people just dump the priming sugar in without worrying too much. That's certainly a reasonable approach and there's nothing wrong with it.

To "calibrate" yourself, think about (or try!) some different commercial examples. A british bitter or mild should be pretty low on the carbonation level, and a proper saison or tripel should be pretty high. Treat yourself and pick up a Westmalle Tripel, that's got a thick glass bottle and I think is carbed close to 4 volumes. The bubbly, almost champagne-like carbonation adds to the spiciness.

In general, I carb most beers around 2.3-2.5 volumes. I aim for a little higher on a hefe or other German wheat, and I aim a little higher on Belgian styles. You probably don't want to go above 3 volumes in a standard glass bottle for safety reasons.

Now that's practical advice I can use. I wish I had this perspective before I bottled my Scottish 80 shilling, but such is life and brewing beer is an adventure I suppose.

Thanks,
Andy

 

[anbowden]

Otherwise, yes, you might want to add some carb drops. I think if the beer was finished when you bottled it, unless you have an infection / wild yeast it's not going to carbonate on its own.

Are you sure it's not too late to add carbonation drops? Are the yeast dormant(or dead) by now?
BTW, I had a 7 week beer yesterday and it was still flat.

Thanks,
Andy

 

[zachattack]

They shouldn't be dead! Add it, cap it up real quick, then maybe gently invert the bottles a couple times to make sure the yeast stays in suspension.

 

[progmac]

it's as good as it will get given the low CO2 volume! Add some carb drops and recap, you may be happier.

 

[DSmith]

If your 5 gallon fermenation was about 68F:

17g of priming sugar for 1.08 vol of CO2
71g of priming sugar for 1.8 vol of CO2

Difference = 54g

If you bottled the entire batch in 22oz bottles, you should have about 29 bottles. You can get close to your desired carbonation if you put 5mL of a sugar solution into each 22oz bottle with a child's oral syringe (Walgreens). Make the solution by mixing 54g of sugar in 4.93 fl oz of water, briefly boil (microwave) to not evaporate too much water. I'd up the ratio to 66g of sugar in 6 fl oz of water to have some leftover sugar. Use 2.5 mL for 12 oz bottles.

 

[progmac]

If your 5 gallon fermenation was about 68F:

17g of priming sugar for 1.08 vol of CO2
71g of priming sugar for 1.8 vol of CO2

Difference = 54g

If you bottled the entire batch in 22oz bottles, you should have about 29 bottles. You can get close to your desired carbonation if you put 5mL of a sugar solution into each 22oz bottle with a child's oral syringe (Walgreens). Make the solution by mixing 54g of sugar in 4.93 fl oz of water, briefly boil (microwave) to not evaporate too much water. I'd up the ratio to 66g of sugar in 6 fl oz of water to have some leftover sugar. Use 2.5 mL for 12 oz bottles.

Yeah, but if you're opening the bottles you're releasing the carbonation. I'd open them and carb to desired volume as though they were uncarbed

 

[DSmith]

Yeah, but if you're opening the bottles you're releasing the carbonation. I'd open them and carb to desired volume as though they were uncarbed

Possibly. I opened an overcarbonated beer once for a minute and recapped and saw no change in (over) carbonation when opened a few days later. I'm sure the carbonation was lower but not night-and-day different. The best solution for that was to get a wider/bigger glass. It's probably a good idea to increase the new sugar a little.

 

[anbowden]

Thanks for all the helpful replies!
I did re-carbonate my Scottish Ale 80 Shilling last week. I used sucrose, without water. I uncapped, added the sugar, and then QUICKLY recapped. I found out that when you add the sugar, the beer foams up VERY fast! I suppose using the sucrose/water mixture would've helped this problem and I'll keep it in mind for next time(but hopefully this won't happen to me again!)

Thanks,
Andy

 

[zachattack]

Haha yeah it's the same deal with Mentos when you drop them into soda. Sugar crystals are a great nucleation site for CO2 to come out of solution!