5 Minute AG IPA boil experiment

[homebrewdad]

It sounded like an odd idea to me, but this guy did it... and it apparently turned out well. If nothing else, it's an interesting writeup.

5 Minute AG Boil link.

 

[bu_gee]

It looks like he's content to not make the most of his ingredients. He'd rather spend more money on ingredients and less time making his brew.

It is certainly not the way I would want to make beer.

 

[homebrewdad]

It's not the way I would do it, either... but I think it's really interesting, especially on the DMS front. Traditional wisdom says you need that long boil to get rid of DMS, and that you can't get the bitterness you need without it. However, this post says that may not be the case.

 

[JKoravos]

Hey, if it works, what the heck?!

 

[Kmeister]

It's not the way I would do it, either... but I think it's really interesting, especially on the DMS front. Traditional wisdom says you need that long boil to get rid of DMS, and that you can't get the bitterness you need without it. However, this post says that may not be the case.

You can get the bitterness you need with all late boil additions but its kind of a waste of money. He threw quite a bit of hops at it for it only being 38 ibus.

 

[kpr121]

Pretty cool. I don’t think I’d go as far as 5 minutes but its nice to see people pushing the limits in the interest of shortening brew days. I love the exbeeriments on the brulosophy website.

Thinking of trying a 30 minute mash, 30 minute boil, no chill brew next batch. Would be awesome to be done with a AG batch in less than 3 hours. That means more double brew days!

 

[Yooper]

It's not the way I would do it, either... but I think it's really interesting, especially on the DMS front. Traditional wisdom says you need that long boil to get rid of DMS, and that you can't get the bitterness you need without it. However, this post says that may not be the case.

I think that with today's maltsters and using more highly kilned malts that DMS really isn't a factor in many cases. And hops oils will isomerize at less than boiling temperatures, as we've all found out with doing hop stands.

Still, I almost always do a 60 minute boil. Partly for tradition, but also partly so that I can increase my efficiency, due to the boil off. The maillard reactions occur as well.

Maybe when I brew tomorrow, I'll take two quarts of liquid out of the boil kettle before starting the boil, and just do a very short boil with that and hop accordingly, and then taste the 5 minute wort vs the 60 minute wort. I wonder if I would notice a difference that could be attributable to maillard reactions in the flavor of the finished worts.

 

[homebrewdad]

Great points, Yooper. I don't see me ever going this route myself, but I felt like it was still a fascinating read.

 

[kpr121]

You can get the bitterness you need with all late boil additions but its kind of a waste of money. He threw quite a bit of hops at it for it only being 38 ibus.

Thats quite a bit of aroma and flavor that get added to the beer too! Not a waste of money if thats what youre going for.

IMHO this process would only really work for hoppy beers. If your doing a stout or porter or something I guess you could boil water and hops for an hour separately in order to get bitterness you need but that seems to be be counter-productive.

 

[homebrewdad]

Agreed on both counts, krp121.

 

[kpr121]

Maybe when I brew tomorrow, I'll take two quarts of liquid out of the boil kettle before starting the boil, and just do a very short boil with that and hop accordingly, and then taste the 5 minute wort vs the 60 minute wort. I wonder if I would notice a difference that could be attributable to maillard reactions in the flavor of the finished worts.

How would you propose to 'hop accordingly'. No hop additions on the 60 minute boil until 5 minutes left? Sounds like a fun experiment! If you dont like the 2 quarts of 5 minute wort at the end, either dump it or blend it back in with the rest of the batch.

 

[homebrewdad]

Id be interested to see how a comparison ended up.

 

[sportpak]

Is there a hop oil extract that can be used for bittering?

 

[Yooper]

How would you propose to 'hop accordingly'. No hop additions on the 60 minute boil until 5 minutes left? Sounds like a fun experiment! If you dont like the 2 quarts of 5 minute wort at the end, either dump it or blend it back in with the rest of the batch.

I'd pull the wort out before the boil, and do the batch 'regular', and then do the 1/2 gallon on top of the stove and calculate the same IBUs.

But I'm pretty lazy, and I may not feel like it.

The one thing that the boil does seems to increase clarity, although if you still got a hot break and cold break that might help.

 

[poptarts]

its still needs to be boiled or held at high temps for isomerization i believe.

 

[Owly055]

I'm going to be doing a hop bursted lager this weekend, with all hops added at less than 5 minutes. IBUs are quite high. I would look at using something like Summit for bitterness if I weren't being wasteful of hops for flavor and aroma. My hop rate will be 1.2 ounces per gallon of brew. With a 5 minute addition the IBUs work out at about 60.

One approach I've never heard of anybody doing is blasting the boil with CO2 to clear DMS rapidly. It could be a simple device consisting of a pancake coil of copper tubing with many tiny holes. Hook it up to CO2 and adjust the flow rate for a lot of action. I think a 5 minute boil could clear any DMS very quickly doing this. The same thing could probably be done in the fermenter.

The 20 - 30 minute mash works extremely well depending on crush, and saves significant time, as does using an auxilliary heat source for heating to mash and boil temps. I've personally never boiled less than 30 minutes, but could detect no ill effects. I can drop to pitch temp from boil in 8 minutes with my chiller. It's hardly worth cutting back that time, as you can pitch immediately.


H.W.

 

[JKoravos]

I'm going to be doing a hop bursted lager this weekend, with all hops added at less than 5 minutes. IBUs are quite high. I would look at using something like Summit for bitterness if I weren't being wasteful of hops for flavor and aroma. My hop rate will be 1.2 ounces per gallon of brew. With a 5 minute addition the IBUs work out at about 60.

One approach I've never heard of anybody doing is blasting the boil with CO2 to clear DMS rapidly. It could be a simple device consisting of a pancake coil of copper tubing with many tiny holes. Hook it up to CO2 and adjust the flow rate for a lot of action. I think a 5 minute boil could clear any DMS very quickly doing this. The same thing could probably be done in the fermenter.

The 20 - 30 minute mash works extremely well depending on crush, and saves significant time, as does using an auxilliary heat source for heating to mash and boil temps. I've personally never boiled less than 30 minutes, but could detect no ill effects. I can drop to pitch temp from boil in 8 minutes with my chiller. It's hardly worth cutting back that time, as you can pitch immediately.


H.W.

You can fact check this if you want, but IIRC DMS forms throughout the boil by thermal decomposition of SMM. If that's the case you can't really get rid of all the DMS with a CO2 blast because it hasn't been converted to DMS until you boil it. Long boils to reduce DMS are really reducing SMM available to convert to DMS during the cool down. Very rapid chilling might be the way to go if you want a short boil as it will keep DMS formation from the remaining SMM to a minimum.

Keep in mind I could be totally talking out of my...err..ear here.

ETA: Here's some info.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/04/10/dimethyl-sulfides-dms-in-home-brewed-beer/

I kinda got it right but I guess a lot of the DMS and DMSO is already present at the beginning of the boil and SMM conversion during the boil just adds to it.

Rapidly cooling your wort after boiling is also important. The SMM to DMS conversion continues at temperatures well below boiling, so DMS is produced even while the wort is cooling after the boil. However, unlike the mash, DMS produced while cooling cannot be boiled off. This conversion continues even if the hot wort is vented. For every hour you have hot wort sitting around, you will produce approximately a 30% increase in DMS.

 

[Owly055]

You can fact check this if you want, but IIRC DMS forms throughout the boil by thermal decomposition of SMM. If that's the case you can't really get rid of all the DMS with a CO2 blast because it hasn't been converted to DMS until you boil it. Long boils to reduce DMS are really reducing SMM available to convert to DMS during the cool down. Very rapid chilling might be the way to go if you want a short boil as it will keep DMS formation from the remaining SMM to a minimum.

Keep in mind I could be totally talking out of my...err..ear here.

ETA: Here's some info.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/04/10/dimethyl-sulfides-dms-in-home-brewed-beer/

I kinda got it right but I guess a lot of the DMS and DMSO is already present at the beginning of the boil and SMM conversion during the boil just adds to it.

This suggests to me that CO2 blasting would definitely assist in DMS removal, in the boil, in the cooling process, and during fermentation. Note that he says that vigorous fermentation of ale yeast produce CO2 bubbles that eliminate a significant amount of DMS as compared to lager fermentation. A CO2 manifold producing bubbles during a lager fermentation should offer significant benefit. It looks like a very viable alternative.

H.W.

 

[Yooper]

This suggests to me that CO2 blasting would definitely assist in DMS removal, in the boil, in the cooling process, and during fermentation. Note that he says that vigorous fermentation of ale yeast produce CO2 bubbles that eliminate a significant amount of DMS as compared to lager fermentation. A CO2 manifold producing bubbles during a lager fermentation should offer significant benefit. It looks like a very viable alternative.

H.W.

Except that co2 is poisonous to yeast, and that is why winemakers and mazers stir during early primary- to get rid of some CO2 by degassing- for good yeast health.

While yeast does produce c02, either a spunding valve or an airlock is used to release it when it becomes excessive.

 

[homebrewdad]

To be fair, CO2 blasting ought to be fine during cooling, assuming you oxygenate properly. Or, at least, I would think it would be fine.

Though I'm dubious as to how effective it is to getting rid of DMS.

 

[RM-MN]

I think that with today's maltsters and using more highly kilned malts that DMS really isn't a factor in many cases. And hops oils will isomerize at less than boiling temperatures, as we've all found out with doing hop stands.

Still, I almost always do a 60 minute boil. Partly for tradition, but also partly so that I can increase my efficiency, due to the boil off. The maillard reactions occur as well.

Maybe when I brew tomorrow, I'll take two quarts of liquid out of the boil kettle before starting the boil, and just do a very short boil with that and hop accordingly, and then taste the 5 minute wort vs the 60 minute wort. I wonder if I would notice a difference that could be attributable to maillard reactions in the flavor of the finished worts.

I think da Yooper is right about the lack of DMS or the DMS forming SMMs. I've done a few brews with only a 30 minute boil and no chill. That should load up my beer with DMS because of the short boil and the fact that DMS is still produced until the beer gets below 180 should further load it up but I don't detect it in my beer.

Maybe da Yooper just needs to use Maillard Malts instead of the long boil to get the maillard reactions.

 

[JKoravos]

This suggests to me that CO2 blasting would definitely assist in DMS removal, in the boil, in the cooling process, and during fermentation. Note that he says that vigorous fermentation of ale yeast produce CO2 bubbles that eliminate a significant amount of DMS as compared to lager fermentation. A CO2 manifold producing bubbles during a lager fermentation should offer significant benefit. It looks like a very viable alternative.

H.W.

I don't know, it's not clear to me how that would help any more than just boiling it for the equivalent amount of time. Even if it did work, now you have an extra piece of equipment to deal with.

I like the idea, but it seems impractical to me.

 

[Owly055]

To be fair, CO2 blasting ought to be fine during cooling, assuming you oxygenate properly. Or, at least, I would think it would be fine.

Though I'm dubious as to how effective it is to getting rid of DMS.

If you read the link he gave, it speaks of CO2 during a vigorous fermentation taking the DMS out of the beer......... Boiling vigorously brings the DMS out in the bubbles created from the boil. The idea is that non-oxy bubbles are going to provide a path for DMS to escape the liquid.


H.W.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Haven't read all the posts yet. I'm curious how a fwh would behave with a short boil.