21 Year Old Baby Beer

[RyeGuy]

The wife and I are expecting our first (a boy) in October. I've seen some guys on here have tried to do a big beer that could age all the way until the kid is 21 and figured I'd give a barleywine a try. 15% ABV seemed like a nice round number and I went huge on the hops as other posts have suggested so they hold up. I plan on brewing it in the next month or so. Here's the recipe, anybody have any suggestions or comments. My main worry is the yeast as this would be my first starter and I mainly use dry yeast. Any suggestions on that?

Baby Caleb Barleywine:

22 lbs Pale 2-Row
1.25 lbs Crystal 40
1.25 lbs Crystal 120
1.25 lbs Carapils
0.5 lbs Pale Chocolate
3 lbs Light DME
2.5 lbs Cane Sugar
15.4% ABV

5 oz Magnum 15% AA 90 min
0.5 oz Amarillo 8.6% AA 10 min
0.5 oz Cascade 7% AA 10 min
0.5 oz Amarillo 8.6% AA 0 min
0.5 oz Cascade 7% AA 0 min
193 IBUs

WLP 090 San Diego Super Yeast. Ferment at 65F.

Mash at 150. Mashout at 170. 90 min boil.

 

[Pie_Man]

I would use yeastcalc.com to determine the pitching rate. Yeastcalc is nice because it lets you do stepped starters to reach the desired cell count. I would also aerate well and use some yeast nutrient. Good luck and congrats

 

[CBMbrewer]

Congratulations!

I would be VERY careful about adding oxygen at any point post fermentation. In fact, I would consider, flushing the secondary with co2 before racking.
Good luck!

 

[funnycreature]

In a recent podcast I heard that you should aerate a second time just about 12-24h after pitching the yeast. I think it was the Jamil Show. After that I'd agree it's not that good an idea.

 

[RyeGuy]

I heard that on the Jamil show too. I was thinking jut sanitizing my racking cane and pumping it backwards to get air to bubble up through the beer.

Thanks guys, I'll check out yeastcalc. Has anyone used this newer yeast for something this big before? This will be my highest ABV so far.

 

[Bensiff]

Congrats, we just had our first 7 weeks ago, still hoping for that first elusive full nights sleep (for me that is).

Anyway as far as the recipe, a beer that big really needs no crystal, the base malts will speak volumes...not to mention will be cloying. I personally would drop the crystal, add some Munich or Vienna or another base malt for interest, bump the sugar up to around 15%, and not worry at all about late addition hops because at 21 years you really won't have much any character left.

Normally I say people worry too much about infection as it is pretty hard to ruin a beer that will be drunk in the next few months. However, this is a different case. I would do a full brewery cleaning before this one...right down to breaking apart ball valves into individual components and cleaning and sanitizing each part before putting back together. This is a good time for new hoses too.

Assuming everything is good and clean oxygen will be your biggest enemy, give it enough to ferment out and after that, if at all possible use CO2 for everything. Flush your bottling bucket with it, push your beer from carboy to bottling bucket with CO2, use a Beergun or the like to fill the bottles so they are CO2 flushed (or cap on foam at the minimum), and use oxygen caps.

After they have been bottled up, try them a few in a few years, if they are good at a couple years they are set for the long haul. Good luck and congrats again.

 

[Pratzie]

Excellent idea, i've heard of more then a few people doing something similar with mead for weddings to open at particular anniveraries, as well as with newborns for when they turn 21. All the above advise would be good to follow.

Goodluck and congrats!

 

[PLOVE]

Congrats! I did the same thing (barley wine) when my son was born. Actually, to be more accurate it was more like a conception brew, but who's counting. That was more than 7 years ago. Only 14 to go!!

P

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Best of luck. I have some mead buried in my back yard for just this occasion. My first son is 7 now, my second is 4. i have managed to keep some sampler bottles in my keezer too, and each one I have opened has been fabulous.

 

[daksin]

I agree with a few earlier posters. For a beer designed to be aged this long, a couple of thoughts.

1) You already touched on a starter. You're going to need a ton of yeast that can attenuate well. If you're used to dry yeast, maybe stick with that. Multiple packets of US-05 or BRY-97 to the cell count you need, properly rehydrated in 95-105F tap water.

2) Oxygen is going to be your biggest enemy with a beer designed to age this long. Aerate well at the beginning, with another shot of O2 ~12-18hrs after pitching, and then never again. Definitely purge your secondary with CO2 and be insanely anal about racking.

3) I'm not sure I'd want a beer sitting on yeast for 21 years (but someone please chime in on this). I would consider a long secondary and then filtering the beer to remove all yeast. This is another step where you need to be positively manic about purging things with CO2 and not introducing any oxygen.

4) Bottling is another oxygen source. I would filter it into a purged keg, give it a nice lagering period of a few months at least, and then bottle the force-carbonated beer with something like the Blichmann Beer Gun. Normally I would never recommend such an expensive bit of kit, but unlike my usual BMBF it purges the bottle with CO2 before filling, which could be critical.

5) Cap the bottles with new oxygen absorbing caps and don't sanitize them first. They should be pretty sanitary if the bag hasn't been opened yet, and they start to absorb O2 after getting wet (cap, and then swish beer over the cap). I would also consider waxing the tops of the bottles to further discourage oxygen ingress.

 

[peterj]

First off congratulations man! That's awesome! And this is a pretty cool idea.

So I completely agree with everything that Bensiff said. Great advice! I also agree that you need to aerate as much as possible and then again about 18 or so hours in.

Like Bensiff said, with a beer that big you need little to no crystal. It's going to be all the yeast can do to get the FG down enough so that it's not cloying. I would probably mash even lower like at 148. And replace the crystal and carapils with munich and/or vienna. I like the pale chocolate in there. I've heard that beers with roasted malts age better than ones without. I also heard this on the Jamil show.

Also, that much bittering might be a little overkill. I think only about 100 IBUs worth of iso-alpha acids can be held in solution in wort. So anything over that might just be wasted. It won't hurt to add that much though so go ahead and do it if you want to.

Good luck on your brew! And be sure to post back in 21 years to let us know how it went! Haha!

 

[eulipion2]

If you're not terribly attached to bottling, you could just sacrifice a keg and leave it there for the 21 years. Had a friend with a 25-year-old doppelbock that he only bottled for competitions. And it was awesome. Delicious. Even won a couple best-of-shows.

 

[will_rouse]

If you're not terribly attached to bottling, you could just sacrifice a keg and leave it there for the 21 years. Had a friend with a 25-year-old doppelbock that he only bottled for competitions. And it was awesome. Delicious. Even won a couple best-of-shows.

How long would the seals and everything last? I guess you could coat the entire thing in lube to keep it from rusting. Would you keep pressure this entire time? Natural carb?

 

[RachmaelBenApplebaum]

Only thing I can think of would be to sub Honey instead of plain old sugar. If you can find a nice local variety it will definitely lend its flavor the the brew year after year. Honey also helps prevent oxidation, or rather its harder to oxidize once fermented. You also may have to add some champagne yeast at bottling just to get it to carb up, so sitting on some lees for that long won't be much of an issue if you're bottling. For another assuring example Belgians get better with age in the bottle on the yeast, not worse, they don't call them the burgundies of Belgium for nothing good luck

 

[Mikethepoolguy]

Don't forget to post back on this in 21 years to tell (those of us that are still alive) how it came out.

 

[eulipion2]

How long would the seals and everything last? I guess you could coat the entire thing in lube to keep it from rusting. Would you keep pressure this entire time? Natural carb?

If I had to guess (which I do), I'd say at most you'd have to transfer to another keg every few years. Just make sure to lube it well, and make sure you've got a solid seal. My friend had a shed out back of his house with 3-4 grocery store beverage coolers full of kegs (didn't have kids, needed a hobby ), so I would imagine he left the gas on the whole time.

I'm not a kegging expert, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

[Bensiff]

Only thing I can think of would be to sub Honey instead of plain old sugar. If you can find a nice local variety it will definitely lend its flavor the the brew year after year. Honey also helps prevent oxidation, or rather its harder to oxidize once fermented. You also may have to add some champagne yeast at bottling just to get it to carb up, so sitting on some lees for that long won't be much of an issue if you're bottling. For another assuring example Belgians get better with age in the bottle on the yeast, not worse, they don't call them the burgundies of Belgium for nothing good luck

That is interesting about the honey, I knew it has some anti-septic qualities, but not anti-oxidative when fermented.

As far as the issue with carbing is concerned. I don't fully agree that Belgians get better with age, I have had both Westy 12 and Rochefort 12 fresh and aged and I preferred both of them fresh. The aged ones are still outstanding though, so ultimately it is a matter of taste so there is no correct answer.

Here is a tactic that can work great if you have a counter pressure filler or beer gun and what some professionals do to get consistent bottle conditioning results while maintaining only a small amount of yeast sediment. Say you want the beer carbed to 2.2 volumes. First you force carb to 1.7 volumes, then add the yeast and sugar to the last .5 volumes. That way, even if the yeast craps out on you and fails to carb, which is a real possibility at your ABV levels, you will still have some carbonation.

 

[RyeGuy]

Congrats, we just had our first 7 weeks ago, still hoping for that first elusive full nights sleep (for me that is).

Anyway as far as the recipe, a beer that big really needs no crystal, the base malts will speak volumes...not to mention will be cloying. I personally would drop the crystal, add some Munich or Vienna or another base malt for interest, bump the sugar up to around 15%, and not worry at all about late addition hops because at 21 years you really won't have much any character left.

Yeah I was thinking about replacing some of the two row with some Munich. Good call. I also have some Marris Otter I'm gonna throw in. Can the sugar be up at 15%? I thought I heard this made it more alcoholy tasting?

For the late hop additions I want to see how that tastes within the first couple years and how it fades. My new grain bill I came up with looks like this.

2 Row Pale Malt 20.00#
Marris Otter 3.00#
Vienna Malt 1.25#
Victory Malt 1.25#
Munich Malt 3.00#
Pale Chocolate 0.50#
Carapils 1.25#
Cane Sugar 3.00#

 

[RyeGuy]

Congrats! I did the same thing (barley wine) when my son was born. Actually, to be more accurate it was more like a conception brew, but who's counting. That was more than 7 years ago. Only 14 to go!!

P

How's it tasting now? I'm going to have a hard time staying out of it I know!

 

[RyeGuy]

1) You already touched on a starter. You're going to need a ton of yeast that can attenuate well. If you're used to dry yeast, maybe stick with that. Multiple packets of US-05 or BRY-97 to the cell count you need, properly rehydrated in 95-105F tap water.

2) Oxygen is going to be your biggest enemy with a beer designed to age this long. Aerate well at the beginning, with another shot of O2 ~12-18hrs after pitching, and then never again. Definitely purge your secondary with CO2 and be insanely anal about racking.

The more I thought about it the more I'm leaning towards using the nottingham yeast cake from a brown ale I got going right now. I figure I'll see what that gives me in terms of ABV and then repitch something heavy duty if I have to. Should be more than enough cells in that cake for me to use.

Also, I've never aerated a beer before other than shaking it. I don't have an oxygen tank or anything.

That's a good idea on the oxygen caps and wax. I'll plan on that fo sho.

 

[peterj]

I wouldn't pitch on a yeast cake. That just adds another chance of infection because the beer that it's from might have had something in it that you wouldn't notice in a short period of time but might grow in 21 years of aging. Pitching 2 or maybe 3 packets of Notty would be more than enough cells and you could be sure you're not introducing anything bad. It would also be fairly cheap and easy. Use this yeast calculator to figure out how much you need: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html.

I would also drop the carapils. Carapils is basically a crystal malt with a very low lovibond. It adds unfermentables and body just like crystal malt but not the caramelly flavor. You don't need any extra unfermentables or body with a grainbill that big.

15% sugar is kind of a lot. I might back it down to 2 lbs maximum. Sugar is going to ferment out 100% to alcohol which is why it can add a boozey quality in high amounts. It just adds alcohol with no flavor or body contributions. If you have too much simple sugar it can cause the yeast to crap out early because they go for the simple sugar first and then they adapt to it and aren't able to break down the more complex sugars in the wort. You could look into adding the sugar to the fermenter just after high krausen to avoid this.

 

[Bensiff]

I like the new grain bill but I agree that the catapils should not be added, this big a beer you want to balance not just with the hops but the body as well and catapils adds body where you likely don't want it. That leads directly to the sugar question... Yes you can go 15% no problem on the sugar. I don't suggest you add it to make it more alcoholic for the sake of the alcohol...if that makes sense. It helps balance out the body making it lighter.

 

[boswell]

I too am planning something along these lines, for what it's worth, I haven't had any trouble getting to 12 % when pitching on a cake from an ordinary bitter or pale ale in the 1,043ish range. Had a delicious dry iipa in 4 weeks at 11 % pitching on a notty cake.

FSo from my very limited experience, brew something to drink now, keg it and pitch on the cake. Leave it there for a month, then start thinking about secondary. Or better yet, brew a sour or solera sour with Brett and dregs, something that'll evolve with age.

 

[peterj]

Don't pitch on a cake. It multiplies your chance of infection between two batches instead of just the one. This is especially important when you're going to age it for so long. Also, it's almost always an overpitch of yeast which is not good for yeast health or the beer.

 

[Bensiff]

I like the new grain bill but I agree that the catapils should not be added, this big a beer you want to balance not just with the hops but the body as well and catapils adds body where you likely don't want it. That leads directly to the sugar question... Yes you can go 15% no problem on the sugar. I don't suggest you add it to make it more alcoholic for the sake of the alcohol...if that makes sense. It helps balance out the body making it lighter.

Sorry for quoting myself...but one more thought, boil the sugar in some water to sterilize and add that to the fermenter around a week into fermentation, don't give the yeast the sugar up front.

 

[RyeGuy]

Sorry for quoting myself...but one more thought, boil the sugar in some water to sterilize and add that to the fermenter around a week into fermentation, don't give the yeast the sugar up front.

Good thought. That way the yeast dont get lazy on the easy stuff.

Everybody is talking about oxygenation and how important it is but I have never done it. Can someone give me a rundown of how to do it, preferably without having to buy a bunch of equipment. I do have an expensive baby on the way you know.

 

[peterj]

Shaking up your fermenter after you put the wort in there for like 5 minutes will aerate it. I use this: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/cheap-easy-aeration-gadget-68218/. I use it to transfer from the kettle to the fermenter and from what I can tell it aerates it very well. You could also go with an oxygen stone and O2, but that costs money.

 

[Bensiff]

Good thought. That way the yeast dont get lazy on the easy stuff.

Everybody is talking about oxygenation and how important it is but I have never done it. Can someone give me a rundown of how to do it, preferably without having to buy a bunch of equipment. I do have an expensive baby on the way you know.

There is plenty of threads that will give you the particulars of oxygenating your beer so search for specific details. Long and short of it, is that you can oxygenate with atmospheric O2 (shaking, splashing, using an aquarium pump) or injecting pure O2 from a cylinder. Atmospheric O2 will max out around 8ppm (IIRC) and ideally you want 10-12ppm...perhaps higher for a high gravity brew but I don't know for sure. Anyway, brewing high gravity beer is all about the yeast. You want to pitch the correct amount of yeast, if you use liquid yeast use yeast nutrient when building up the starter, use yeast nutrient in the wort, oxygenate it properly, maintain temps...if you cut corners your yeast will very well not perform as expected, either poor attenuation or high ester production or both. If you can swing it, I would pick up a basic O2 kit, they use throw away O2 bottles that are available at any Lowes/HD welding areas and is a relatively cheap way to get into O2 injection.

 

[peterj]

There is plenty of threads that will give you the particulars of oxygenating your beer so search for specific details. Long and short of it, is that you can oxygenate with atmospheric O2 (shaking, splashing, using an aquarium pump) or injecting pure O2 from a cylinder. Atmospheric O2 will max out around 8ppm (IIRC) and ideally you want 10-12ppm...perhaps higher for a high gravity brew but I don't know for sure. Anyway, brewing high gravity beer is all about the yeast. You want to pitch the correct amount of yeast, if you use liquid yeast use yeast nutrient when building up the starter, use yeast nutrient in the wort, oxygenate it properly, maintain temps...if you cut corners your yeast will very well not perform as expected, either poor attenuation or high ester production or both. If you can swing it, I would pick up a basic O2 kit, they use throw away O2 bottles that are available at any Lowes/HD welding areas and is a relatively cheap way to get into O2 injection.

Sorry for going a little off topic here, but how much do the basic O2 kits and the throw away O2 bottles cost? I've been thinking about upgrading to O2 but I'm kind of on a budget and I've always thought it was a little expensive. Guess I've never really looked into it though.

 

[Bensiff]

Sorry for going a little off topic here, but how much do the basic O2 kits and the throw away O2 bottles cost? I've been thinking about upgrading to O2 but I'm kind of on a budget and I've always thought it was a little expensive. Guess I've never really looked into it though.

Most of the big online retailers have O2 injection kits, probably around $50 but you would have to look. I think the throw away bottle cost me around $8 last time I got one...maybe a little more. The kit doesn't come with the bottle due to shipping issues of pressurized containers.

 

[RyeGuy]

Shaking up your fermenter after you put the wort in there for like 5 minutes will aerate it. I use this: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/cheap-easy-aeration-gadget-68218/. I use it to transfer from the kettle to the fermenter and from what I can tell it aerates it very well. You could also go with an oxygen stone and O2, but that costs money.

Cool, thanks for the link. I built one of the venturi injectors from that thread last night and tested it out. It worked great.

 

[RyeGuy]

Got an update on this. Me and my brother brewed it this past Sunday. Final recipe is below:

22.5 lb 2 Row
3 lb Marris Otter
1.25 lb Vienna
1.25 lb Victory
3 lb Munich
0.5 lb Pale Chocolate
3 lb Briess Amber LME
5 lb Estimated Sugar Primary Additions

5 oz Magnum 14.5% 90 min
0.5 oz Amarillo 9.9% 15 min
0.5 oz Cascade 5.4% 15 min
0.5 ozAmarillo 9.9% 1 min
0.5 oz Cascade 5.4% 1 min

2 packs of Notty with Fermax



I ended up double mashing this. 150F for the first and 148F for the 2nd. Hit pretty much all my expected gravities and was even a little high on the volume I got out of it. Mash efficiencies were 90% for the 1st mash and 73% for the 2nd.

Final gravity was 1.121 for a projected ABV of 13.5% w/o sugar additions. Looking at 18% with sugar added. BH efficiency was about 60% as I estimated. Fermenting at 60F right now and raging pretty hard. I'm pretty happy with the results. I've seen a lot of questions on BIAB double mashing and researched it a lot. From this experience it seems to be a good way to brew big beers.

 

[jessej122]

That's awesome man! Congratulations