20% abv beer, 100%fail.

[bryan567]

Hi,

So I tried to brew a 20% abv beer and recently decided it is a failure. I'm not here to talk about what I did or why it failed (although Im prefectly willing to if anyone is interested). I have a good idea what went wrong and what to do differently next time. I'd like to get your opinions on what (if anything) I can do to make this failure drinkable.

It started at 1.179 and stopped at 1.078 which leaves it at 14% abv and is, of course, undrinkable. Thing is, underneath the unbearable sweetness, it actually smells and tastes really good!

Pitching an active starter of a high alcohol tolerant yeast would probably drop it a few points more, but I doubt adding more yeast will ever get it down to drinkable levels.

Im thinking pitching some bugs and let them have a go at the remaining sugar. I know lacto and pedio have a alcohol tolerance of around 9 and brett is at around 12, so Im thinking dilute with water untill the alcohol is down to bug tolerable levels and let them work out the rest.

What do you guys think?

 

[janivar123]

Lalvin EC-118 might push it up to 18% if you mashed cold enough

 

[emjay]

If you're going to dilute with water, you could do the same thing with normal yeast anyways...

And you could always remove it afterwards by way of freeze distillation.

 

[passedpawn]

Diluting 50:50 it would be a simple solution. Play around with beersmith - you might need to boil some hops on stovetop and add to get correct bitterness ratio. Then pitch new yeast. Good luck.

If you don't want to dilute, you could add amylase enzymes and hope for further fermentation. This only corrects poor fermentabiliity due to bad mash temps. If I was in your shoes I'd give this a try (and I'd add more yeast).

BTW, bugs (bacteria) won't help. They are not cool with high-alcohol. Popular wisdom says they are good to about 8%.

 

[emjay]

If you don't want to dilute, you could add amylase enzymes and hope for further fermentation. This only corrects poor fermentabiliity due to bad mash temps. If I was in your shoes I'd give this a try (and I'd add more yeast).

It's a 14% beer. Adding amylase is just going to make it sweeter. It's a pretty safe assumption, especially so far from a reasonable FG, that it stalled due to the alcohol level.

There could very well be a fermentability issue, but it's almost certainly not the wall he's currently run into, and it will be impossible to tell if such an issue exists until he addresses the issue he's currently facing.

To add amylase now would be seriously jumping the gun, especially since there's nothing to suggest a lack of fermentable sugars. In fact, the fact that it tastes sickeningly sweet is a damn good indicator that there are plenty of fermentable sugars still remaining in the beer.

 

[passedpawn]

It's a 14% beer. Adding amylase is just going to make it sweeter. It's a pretty safe assumption, especially so far from a reasonable FG, that it stalled due to the alcohol level.

There could very well be a fermentability issue, but it's almost certainly not the wall he's currently run into, and it will be impossible to tell if such an issue exists until he addresses the issue he's currently facing.

To add amylase now would be seriously jumping the gun, especially since there's nothing to suggest a lack of fermentable sugars. In fact, the fact that it tastes sickeningly sweet is a damn good indicator that there are plenty of fermentable sugars still remaining in the beer.

Yep, you are right.

 

[Bobby_M]

Experiment with water dilution in taster cups. Maybe 1/3rd water will pull the sweetness down.

20% is pretty ambitious.

 

[BBBF]

I'd brew something else with some champagne yeast and then rack onto the yeast cake before watering it down.

 

[usfmikeb]

I'd make a decent size starter with EC-1118, and try it out on a gallon as a test batch.

 

[pernox]

WLP-099 and forget it.

Really - make a five gallon starter (something with a lot of hops - it throws unpleasant esters that take a while to age out IMO) of something low gravity, then pitch your monstrosity onto the cake and forget about it for a year. This stuff is a beast.

 

[trent]

I agree on 099. I've done a 20% until it crapped out at 1.020

 

[tdogg]

I agree on 099. I've done a 20% until it crapped out at 1.020

im curious about this... have you started a thread about this or listed a recipe?

 

[November]

If you don't want to dilute with just water, you could brew another beer and blend it. Without a recipe it is tough to make a suggestion but there are certainly some styles that could blend well with something that sweet.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

+1 to EC-1118

I've used it to get a barleywine from stalling at 1.065 to 1.025

 

[ZamaMan]

Recipe? Its not all malt right? I know cybi 120min recipe they add corn sugar into fermenter over lots f doses. They also added o2 every day for a few days. Maybe that would have helped.

 

[COLObrewer]

What was the initial yeast and how long has it been in fermentor?

 

[Hex]

Have you roused the yeast?
Have you read this thread?

 

[djfriesen]

With the gravities he's dealing with, I have to think rousing the yeast will do nothing. As stated before, it's most likely his yeast has hit an alcohol tolerance wall. Moving them back into suspension will do nothing if that is the case.

 

[TwoWheeler]

Ok, I'll demonstrate my ignorance here.... Couldn't he brew a small batch of something really hoppy and then blend it a little at a time to balance the sweetness?

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Ok, I'll demonstrate my ignorance here.... Couldn't he brew a small batch of something really hoppy and then blend it a little at a time to balance the sweetness?

At a gravity of 1.078 I don't think any amount of hops could cover up the sweetness

 

[cshamilton]

Maybe try splitting this in two and seeing if one of these might work:

1. To half add a good strong starter of a high gravity ale yeast or the Lalvin strain mentioned earlier

2. Make up 2-3 gallons of weak wort. Maybe just steep some of your original adjunct grains in 160F water - avoid crystal if it was in your recipe - boil and hop similar to your recipe. At about 10 min left in boil add about 1-2 quarts of your stuck beer along with some nutrient (you shouldn't lose too much alcohol - if you are worried add it at flame out). Chill - pitch with fresh yeast - give it 24 hours and mix with the remaing 2+ gallons of stuck beer.

I've never done either one of those things before - but that is what I'd try. Good Luck and let us know what you end up doing.

Sent from my iPad using HB Talk

 

[bryan567]

I'm pretty sure fermentation has stalled due to alcohol. I mashed very low and even used 2 viles of Ultraferm to maximize fermentables in the beer. I'm certain there's still more fermentable sugar, the yeast just couldn't keep up. I started this beer on a giant yeast cake of wlp545 and pitched a huge starter of wlp99 after 3 days. Did staggered wort, o2, and nutrient additions for the first 6 days and continued with wort additions for 8 days, finishing it off with honey and maple syrup.

 

[trent]

im curious about this... have you started a thread about this or listed a recipe?

I followed the DFH 120 thread around here, but I did a 1 gallon batch. Brewed a big beer, used 05 till it crapped out, then added 099 and added a mixture of DME or corn sugar every other day until the gravity started to rise, I wanted to keep FG as low as possible. I have about 6 bottles left it's coming up in a year old, and I'm getting ready to do another.

Cheers

 

[TwoWheeler]

At a gravity of 1.078 I don't think any amount of hops could cover up the sweetness

I said I was going to demonstrate my ignorance - you didn't have to CALL me on it....

I never really thought about the "FG" number he posted.....

He "finished" where most of my beers START....

 

[cjb]

He "finished" where most of my beers START....

That gives me a thought - so we seem to be sure that there's plenty of fermentable sugar left, and it's just the alc% that's impeding it. Assuming you're not hung up on hitting 20% anymore, and just want to salvage something drinkable out of this...couldn't you cook off some of the alcohol (using the method that's been discussed for making N/A beers)?

It would be hard/impossible to know what ABV you end up at, and you'd have to pitch fresh yeast, of course, but that might at least get you to a point where it could eat up the remaining sugars.

 

[Zamial]

IMO it sounds like all the yeast has been covered and we are at the limit yeast can live. No bugs live in that high ABV so sour is out. Yeast itself, short of turbo yeast, is not going to do anything and turbo yeast is going to throw a bunch of off flavors if it does anything at all.


I honestly can not believe I am suggesting this but you may want to try wormwood. It is bitter in ways you can not even come close to imagining. I would do some controlled experiments with smaller amounts before commiting it to the full batch. It will not taste like you wanted but it MIGHT make it drinkable.

 

[heeler]

Why dont you pour it in a still and distill it. Afterall whiskey mash is just a beer of sorts anyway. 180 proof neutral, might be a merry christmas afterall.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Mod in 3.... 2.... 1.

 

[emjay]

Just dilute it and pitch new yeast, sheesh.

You can dilute it with water, or a weak beer. You're not going to balance all that sweetness, so the goal is to just dilute the alcohol and gravity down to a level that is more hospitable for the yeast. Brewing even a weak beer seems like unnecessary work though, when you can just add water, so I strongly recommend just using water.

Dilute *at the very minimum* 2:1 beer:water, and ideally closer to 1:1. Mix well, pitch plenty of healthy yeast, and you'll have something drinkable. Maybe not the massive beer you were planning, but it should still be fairly big, and might even turn out damn good.

 

[the_bird]

I'd brew a brew a simple, hoppy, lowish-gravity (1.05-ish, tops) pale ale, and blend it with the monsterbrau at high krausen. Use a clean yeast with high attenuation and a high tolerance for alcohol. Then, you're both diluting the beer and adding happy, health, vibrant, fresh yeast.

 

[OldWorld]

Let it age and forget about it...Wine that is 13-14.8 percent alcohol does not at all taste good when it is fresh...Let it be...Forget about it.

Let the natural process of oxidizing the strong ale take effect. The side effect of sherry notes could be just what you wanted...Patience....

Use less priming sugar and let it be. bottle with champagne bottles...They will take more co2 than conventional bottles.

 

[emjay]

Let it age and forget about it...Wine that is 13-14.8 percent alcohol does not at all taste good when it is fresh...Let it be...Forget about it.

Let the natural process of oxidizing the strong ale take effect. The side effect of sherry notes could be just what you wanted...Patience....

Use less priming sugar and let it be. bottle with champagne bottles...They will take more co2 than conventional bottles.

Uh, no. It's undrinkably sweet. And it won't carb no matter how much priming sugar you use. It'd just be flat and syrupy, like thinning LME with some vodka and drinking it.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Uh, no. It's undrinkably sweet. And it won't carb no matter how much priming sugar you use. It'd just be flat and syrupy, like thinning LME with some vodka and drinking it.

This.

At 1.078? No way you can just let that ride.

 

[passedpawn]

like thinning LME with some vodka and drinking it.

Hmmm... add an anchovie-stuffed olive and I think you've invented something!

This.

At 1.078? No way you can just let that ride.

Yep, that's an OG for an 8% beer!

 

[madbaldman]

Let it age and forget about it...Wine that is 13-14.8 percent alcohol does not at all taste good when it is fresh...Let it be...Forget about it.

Let the natural process of oxidizing the strong ale take effect. The side effect of sherry notes could be just what you wanted...Patience....

Use less priming sugar and let it be. bottle with champagne bottles...They will take more co2 than conventional bottles.

And just what do you expect a 1.078 FG to turn into over time?

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Also, wine 13-14.8% usually has a FG < 1.000

 

[jester5120]

Syrupy sweet sounds like a solution more than a problem. Pour it on some pancakes. Then you can have breakfast and get a nice buzz. Perfect way to start a morning and you're multi-tasking. That'll make you a winner

 

[Turfmanbrad]

I did a 1.111 OG on 11-11-11 and started with an American ale yeast starter then at 4 days added my wyeast high gravity starter with additions of 1cup of 50/50 corn sugar/brown sugar for 4 days and it's down to 1.014. I love IPA's and it's hoppy as hell even though I wasn't planning on it. Maybe give the extra pitch and some small sugar additions a try to keep the yeast working. Disclaimer- I have no clue what I'm doing.

 

[dmckean44]

Is this something that amylase emzyme and a big new yeast starter can fix?

 

[AnonyBrew]

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