2 x 1500 elements + scorching

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TexasWine

TexasWine

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Bought a couple of Hot Rod heat sticks and have used them to boil two batches now. I coupled the heat sticks with the 1500 watt 9" ULWD stainless elements also available at Brew Hardware.

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/element1500_short.htm

Unfortunately on both batches the elements ended up with significant signs of scorching. They were both completely coated with that baked on, almost flaky, black gunk. And doubly unfortunate is that I don't know what caused it.

The recipes I used them for were a barley wine and a Wookie Jack clone. I BIAB, if that's relevant for this problem.

So now I look to you, my fine cohorts, for answers. Do you have any clue as to what might be causing the scorching and how I can avoid it in the future?
 
I BIAB with ULWD 1500 watt elements. I will say the only time I have had obvious scorching was a batch that had 8oz of table sugar addition. I dumped the sugar in right over an element and it scorched... BAD. I learned my lesson to dissolve the sugar in some wort before dumping it in.

Now my elements do get a black coating over them but it is not scorching just oxidation.
 
I got occasional scotching when I used elements like that.

Switch over to the lower watt density elements if you can. I switched to 120v 1500w elements that are twice as long than that with a fold over and no longer have problems. I think I got mine at either lowes or home depot and I haven't had rust issues after a couple years of use.
 
Jawbox0 said:
I got occasional scotching when I used elements like that.

Switch over to the lower watt density elements if you can. I switched to 120v 1500w elements that are twice as long than that with a fold over and no longer have problems. I think I got mine at either lowes or home depot and I haven't had rust issues after a couple years of use.
Click to expand...

Not sure how much lower watt density I can go than something that's already considered ULWD.
 
Thinking out loud....

One factor with scorching is circulation. You do not want wort staying near a heating element for "too long."

Same principle as you need to keep wort moving around your immersion chiller when you chill your beer.

I assume once you get a rolling boil going, it is not a problem, but before that, you might be burning your wort.
 
RufusBrewer said:
Thinking out loud....

One factor with scorching is circulation. You do not want wort staying near a heating element for "too long."

Same principle as you need to keep wort moving around your immersion chiller when you chill your beer.

I assume once you get a rolling boil going, it is not a problem, but before that, you might be burning your wort.
Click to expand...

bingo! if the wort is a higher density wort you are more likely to get carmelization on the surface which can turn to scorching if the watt density is too high... if you constantly keep the wort in motion this becomes a non issue (which is why many have sucess using non ULWD elements in a rims application.)

work arounds are to use a real ULWD element with a lower watt density than you are now... the greater the surface area for a given wattage the better...

I use a 4500w ULWD element because it has the same amount of heating area surface as the 5500w model making it have an even lower watt density... so no scorching at all in over 50 brew using it.

I did experience scorching on my old rims when I had an area with no flow though.... the solution was to make a longer rims with a 36" long heating element (1800w) which stays perfectly clean after brewing with absolutely no carelization whatsoever.)

your elements are 70w persquare inch and the 5500w ripple style elements are 60w psi...plus they have the "limelife" coating which helps prevent buildup on the surface of them and effectively lowers the watt density further... 4500w ripples are even lower...(i dont get much of a buildup at all on my bk element and its just a little light tan buildup here and there.

you can try keeping the wort moving with a pump prior to boiling on high gravity beers with your current setup. since the biab method is worse as far as the liquid not moving around unless you recirculate or dont fire the element while the bag of grain is in place.
 
Did you turn the heat off and then back on again at some point after the boil had started?

If you turn the heat off after break the coagulated proteins will drop to the bottom of your kettle. When you turn it back on they have the potential to scorch because they are no longer suspended by the action of the boil.
 
RufusBrewer said:
Thinking out loud....

One factor with scorching is circulation. You do not want wort staying near a heating element for "too long."

Same principle as you need to keep wort moving around your immersion chiller when you chill your beer.

I assume once you get a rolling boil going, it is not a problem, but before that, you might be burning your wort.
Click to expand...

Well that might explain why I had scorching on these and not the elements in my Brau Supply set up, which I was doing a parallel brew on at the same time. I was circulating with the pump while coming up to a boil with the Brau Supply.

I don't have a pump to use with the Hot Rod set up. I could stand there and stir continuously until a boil is reached, but that's a huge pain that I'm not willing to do.

I think @WilserBrewer uses 2 x1500 elements. Wilser, do you have any issues with scorching? How do you avoid it?
 
Process? Are you heating during the mash? How large a batch? As said above, circulation is key to keep the proteins in from flocking and laying in a dense pool at the elements. I use a pair of HWD 2000 w elements and only scorched one batch in many over the years. It was a double batch...15 gallons. I foolishly paused the session after the mash / preboil. I suspect the trub settled, and the long duration to achieve boil caused caking on the elements.

This is not the first I've heard of ULWD or LWD elements scorching, perhaps it is also envrironment and not just WD that causes scorching.

The beauty of a heat stick is that you can power off and eximine the element say at the start of the boil, and wipe it down if caking is present. Some occasional stirring heating to boil may also be wise. A finer bag may also pass less solids to the wort also reducing chance of scorching.....

Does the wort taste burnt...If yes I'm afraid it's a dumper :)

edit....sounds to me like you were working like a one arm paper hanger, and possibly let the trub settle in batch 2 while you were gazing in awe of the Brau machine :)

A couple good stirs is likely enough to keep the trub off the elements while heating to boil...IDK

edit 2....I see that these batches were pretty high gravity....that may not play in your favor....checking and wiping the elements moving forward would be a good precaution IME, but as I said this has only happened to me once in many many brews so I have chosen not to change elements. FWIW my heatsticks are straight, so the element sits more upright in the kettle, unlike the HR.
 
AnOldUR said:
Did you turn the heat off and then back on again at some point after the boil had started?

If you turn the heat off after break the coagulated proteins will drop to the bottom of your kettle. When you turn it back on they have the potential to scorch because they are no longer suspended by the action of the boil.
Click to expand...

Ah, now that you mention it, I only had scorching on one element with the barley wine batch. I wanted to see if I could maintain a boil with just one element running. I unplugged one, pulled it out, and waited. The boil eventually slowed and stopped. To get things going again I dropped in the one I had removed and plugged it back in.

It was back to boiling in no time, but I'm not sure which one I had scorching on.
 
TexasWine said:
Ah, now that you mention it, I only had scorching on one element with the barley wine batch. I wanted to see if I could maintain a boil with just one element running. I unplugged one, pulled it out, and waited. The boil eventually slowed and stopped. To get things going again I dropped in the one I had removed and plugged it back in.

It was back to boiling in no time, but I'm not sure which one I had scorching on.
Click to expand...

Come to think of it...the one and only time I scorched I also paused the boil....I suspect all the hot break settles and cakes on the element while trying to re achieve boil...minimal stirring would probably go a long ways in this unique situation.
 
wilserbrewer said:
Process? Are you heating during the mash? How large a batch? As said above, circulation is key to keep the proteins in from flocking and laying in a dense pool at the elements. I use a pair of HWD 2000 w elements and only scorched one batch in many over the years. It was a double batch...15 gallons. I foolishly paused the session after the mash / preboil. I suspect the trub settled, and the long duration to achieve boil caused caking on the elements.

This is not the first I've heard of ULWD or LWD elements scorching, perhaps it is also envrironment and not just WD that causes scorching.

The beauty of a heat stick is that you can power off and eximine the element say at the start of the boil, and wipe it down if caking is present. Some occasional stirring heating to boil may also be wise. A finer bag may also pass less solids to the wort also reducing chance of scorching.....

Does the wort taste burnt...If yes I'm afraid it's a dumper :)

edit....sounds to me like you were working like a one arm paper hanger, and possibly let the trub settle in batch 2 while you were gazing in awe of the Brau machine :)

A couple good stirs is likely enough to keep the trub off the elements while heating to boil...IDK
Click to expand...

Gazing in awe would be pretty accurate. It was a lot of fun to be using a new gadget. I should know better than to do something like this though. 2 parallel batches, one with brand new equipment. Thankfully I had a couple of friends helping out.

These were 5 gallon batches. Both boil volumes around 7.5 gallons. No heating during the mash, only using them to boil.

I like your idea of unplugging and pulling them to check on things. If settled trub could be the culprit I might try something that will allow me to set their depth in the kettle, say half way down into the wort.
 
On my first batch with 1500w elements I had a combination of the zinc coating coming off + some black gunk sticking to it. Batch was not scorched at all, and my elements looked very similar to yours. Hopefully your batch is fine, have you sampled some?

Anyways, after I soaked in starsan to get the elements to bare copper I have had no gunk buildup issues. I wipe down (no scrubbing necessary) after every brew.

I also make sure to pump/stir frequently as I'm bringing it to a boil. As others have already mentioned, it's the most likely culprit it seems.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=525317 is the troubles I went through regarding gunk build up and Mirilis' suggestion on the coating removal which has helped tremendously.
 
Something also worth mentioning, I feel it important to thoroughly clean elements b/w brews. Any debris or slight coating left on the element will quickly attract more deposits. Start clean / finish much cleaner. Start dirty, finish caked and possibly scorched. Clean elements spotless b/w brews. It is easy if you get to them immediately with a scrubby pad. Once dry...not so easy.
 
I'm afraid the barley wine might have a scorched flavor. The Wookie Jack was for a friend so I need to ask him if he detects anything off.

Gonna enter the barley wine in a competition and see if they pick up in a scorched flavor. It might be my knowledge that I had a scorched element that's making me think it has a slight scorched flavor.
 
iijakii said:
On my first batch with 1500w elements I had a combination of the zinc coating coming off + some black gunk sticking to it. Batch was not scorched at all, and my elements looked very similar to yours. Hopefully your batch is fine, have you sampled some?

Anyways, after I soaked in starsan to get the elements to bare copper I have had no gunk buildup issues. I wipe down (no scrubbing necessary) after every brew.

I also make sure to pump/stir frequently as I'm bringing it to a boil. As others have already mentioned, it's the most likely culprit it seems.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=525317 is the troubles I went through regarding gunk build up and Mirilis' suggestion on the coating removal which has helped tremendously.
Click to expand...

My elements are all stainless. I don't know much about the construction of these things, but I'd be very disappointed if they turned out to be copper if I let them sit in starsan.
 
Texas Wine

Reviving an old thread because I just had my first brew session with my electric setup and had scorching on my element.

As suggested through the post I'm pretty sure that I did not stir or recirculate the wort during the ramp up to boil so this could be the problem.

My setup up is a Brausupply SV120 ezboil controller and the Brau Pump.
8 gallon Bayou Classic pot
I have two 1650W elements from Brew Hardware.

So I have the means to circulate during the ramp up to boil and plan to brew again soon to see if this was the problem.

wondering if you have ever had any scorching with your BrauSupply setup.

IMG_0967.jpg


IMG_0988.jpg
 
While those elements have deposits, they are not black and scorched.

Does the wort taste scorched? Like an ash tray?

Elements will typically pick up some mineral deposits and debris, scorching is another level of black and caked coating on the element.

On second look I do see a little dark deposits on the elements.
With a FB likely best to keep the wort moving. Was the FB removed during the ramp to boil?
 
Is FB False Bottom?

I don't have a false bottom. I do use a grate that perfectly fits in the grove above the elements to keep the bag off the elements.

With this beer, I mashed for 1 hour at 149 recirculating the entire time. I then raised the temperature to 168 for 10 minutes still recirculating. When the mash was over, I turned off the pump, pulled and squeezed the bag and started the boil mode.

Wilser, do you recognize the bag in the first picture!

There was definite burning. I did not notice anything taste wise with the hydrometer sample. Beer is still fermenting at the moment

IMG_0991.jpg
 
Did you add any extract?
What % did you boil at?

Interesting that the bottom of the element has the scorching, and not the top. The good news is that you probably aren't having a stuck-sparge / exposed-element issue like I had.

When my recirc got ahead of the mash, the element was above the liquid level while on, and burned over its entirety. I had a 1.065 batch with burning that was not at all noticeable in the final product, after which the element came clean with an annoying amount of scouring. Then a 1.110 batch where it smelled like an ash tray, and the element was so bad that a paint-removal grinder wheel was required, and I gave up. Switched my element to a lower watt density (note that not all ULWD are the same, ripple is half the density of single-fold) as well as swapping the bag for a stainless mesh basket, and I believe that resolved the issue.
 
Last edited:
andrewmaixner said:
Did you add any extract?
What % did you boil at?

Interesting that the bottom of the element has the scorching, and not the top. The good news is that you probably aren't having a stuck-sparge / exposed-element issue like I had.

When my recirc got ahead of the mash, the element was above the liquid level while on, and burned over its entirety. I had a 1.065 batch with burning that was not at all noticeable in the final product, after which the element came clean with an annoying amount of scouring. Then a 1.110 batch where it smelled like an ash tray, and the element was so bad that a paint-removal grinder wheel was required, and I gave up. Switched my element to a lower watt density (note that not all ULWD are the same, ripple is half the density of single-fold) as well as swapping the bag for a stainless mesh basket, and I believe that resolved the issue.
Click to expand...

This was an all grain recipe. I'm fairly certain that I was not drawing the water below the elements. I'll have to peel the bag back on the next brew to check that. I'm ultimately wondering if I need to look at a different element. I really did not realize that scorching could be a problem. Also, the element I bought was listed as approximately 6.5 inches long when it is really 4 inches long.

The element that scorched was on 100% for the boil. The second element was at 20%
 
NTexBrewer said:
This was an all grain recipe. I'm fairly certain that I was not drawing the water below the elements. I'll have to peel the bag back on the next brew to check that. I'm ultimately wondering if I need to look at a different element. I really did not realize that scorching could be a problem. Also, the element I bought was listed as approximately 6.5 inches long when it is really 4 inches long.

The element that scorched was on 100% for the boil. The second element was at 20%
Click to expand...
Hopefully you can balance them at 60% each and have no issues next time, instead of having to replace them. The earlier comment on protein/sediment settling may also be relevant.
I noticed the COBrewingSystems now sets their stuff up to recirculate both into the bottom of the kettle, and through the grain. This could be to prevent sediment settling on the element, or or as a hedge against a stuck recirculation - or both.
 
Was the 100% element on for the mashout ramp?

Did you stir the wort well a couple times during the heating to boil?

Was the 100% element used at all during the mash?

Either way, I would skip the mash out, and stir several times during the ramp to boil powering the 100% element only during preheat of strike water, and ramp to boil with intermittent stirring.

Curious, how close is the element to the bottom of the kettle?

My guess is that your pump is not sufficient to circulate the heavy trub laying at the bottom of the kettle during the mashout and or ramp to boil, and stirring while powering the 100% element would be wise.
 
Hey @NTexBrewer. I never had a scorching problem with my Brau Supply system, only with Hot Rods.

Man, there could be all kinds of problems leading to this, so keep in mind we're all just spit balling here.

Since only the bottom of the 100% element burned, I would deduce, as others have, it was caused by something settling and not pulling the liquid level too low during the mash. Did you use this element or the other during the mash?

Here's the other thing that is curious. I would suspect you set both elements to 100% when ramping to a boil, correct? If so, I don't think it happened during the time between mash and boiling.

I'm sorry I don't have any definitive answers, only more questions.
 
I appreciate all of the feed back and realize it may be a moving target.

Wilser, the element was on 100% for the mashout. The pump was on for the mashout but it was on low and recirculating through the top of the grain bed. For the boil ramp up I don't remember but I'm 99% sure I DID NOT stir. The bottom of the element is about 1.25" above the bottom of the pot.

I'm planning to hopefully brew this weekend and be careful to stir when the element is on full power and see what happens. I can also connect the pump to the whirlpool arm and recirculate through that during ramp up to boil.

Only one element is connected to the controller. The other element is connected to a switch so it is either on or off.

I have thought about getting another controller for the one element but it may be easier just to get better elements. If Texas Wine has not had any problems with his Brau system then that seems to point to the element.

Texas Wine, do you recirculate your Brau system when you are ramping up to boil? Do you do a mash out?
 
wilserbrewer said:
I'm tossing my spitball at the heating to mash out.

JMO, I would skip the mash out moving forward. Remove the grain bag and proceed to boil.
Click to expand...

I'll give that a try. Of course one of the reasons I wanted to go to electric is that I like to brew Belgian beers and do step mashes...

So how do you calculate watt density of an element.

Is it the wattage of the element divided by the volume of the element. Or wattage divided by surface area?
 
NTexBrewer said:
Texas Wine, do you recirculate your Brau system when you are ramping up to boil? Do you do a mash out?
Click to expand...

Just a disclaimer, I swapped out my Brau Supply kettle for a different set up, so I don't use the steamer basket. But, no to both even with the Brau kettle. I might have occasionally recirculated during ramp to boil, but as a general rule I didn't.

I did maybe one step mash with the Brau kettle. But now I do step mashes on every batch, but with only a single element running off the controller. I dial in a new set temp and let it do its thing.

I suspect the mash out was the culprit too.
 
You want a ULWD element if you can get it, which are <= 50 W/in2.

Im really skeptical about those short stubby 1500W ones. Maybe they are 50, maybe not.

I ended up going with a foldback 6000W 240V element bent to fit my pot, running at 120V for 1500W and 21 W/in2.

Also make sure no air gets trapped below the bag. Recirculation can pull air through the bag or from the sides if the bag doesn't as much flow as the pump wants. This pocket builds around your element and can definitely cause scorching just like dry firing. Try pulling your bag up a few inches and see if you get a big bubble come up. If you do, step back on the pump or use a coarser mesh bag.
 
NTexBrewer, if those elements are the same size as the Camco 02852 short stubby version, it's about 90 W/in2. The camco is about 14" of folded element at 3/8 diameter for 16.5 in2. Divide 1500W by that and you get 90.

It would have to be 3/4" in diameter to be in the ULWD range.
 
dcbw said:
You want a ULWD element if you can get it, which are <= 50 W/in2.

Im really skeptical about those short stubby 1500W ones. Maybe they are 50, maybe not.

I ended up going with a foldback 6000W 240V element bent to fit my pot, running at 120V for 1500W and 21 W/in2.

Also make sure no air gets trapped below the bag. Recirculation can pull air through the bag or from the sides if the bag doesn't as much flow as the pump wants. This pocket builds around your element and can definitely cause scorching just like dry firing. Try pulling your bag up a few inches and see if you get a big bubble come up. If you do, step back on the pump or use a coarser mesh bag.
Click to expand...

Where did you source the 6000 watt element?
 
dcbw said:
You want a ULWD element if you can get it, which are <= 50 W/in2.

Im really skeptical about those short stubby 1500W ones. Maybe they are 50, maybe not.

I ended up going with a foldback 6000W 240V element bent to fit my pot, running at 120V for 1500W and 21 W/in2.

Also make sure no air gets trapped below the bag. Recirculation can pull air through the bag or from the sides if the bag doesn't as much flow as the pump wants. This pocket builds around your element and can definitely cause scorching just like dry firing. Try pulling your bag up a few inches and see if you get a big bubble come up. If you do, step back on the pump or use a coarser mesh bag.
Click to expand...

I'd like to know where you got your element also.
 
I'm happy to report that today's brew was a success with NO scorching. Brewed my Farher in Laws Lighthouse Lager.

I skipped the mashout as was suggested.

After the mash, I pulled the bag and stirred the wort. I have a spin-cycle whirlpool arm so I recirculated my pump through this and turned both elements to 100% power to reach my boil.

I then turned off the pump when I reached boil and did my typical brew.

Elements had the typical beige scum that came off easily during my CIP.

Thanks to everyone that helped me work through this to solve the problem.

So I guess if I do a step mash, I should be able to pull the bag some and recirculate through the whirlpool arm while the elements ramp up to the next mash temperature.

IMG_1014.jpg


IMG_1017.jpg


IMG_1016.jpg
 

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