2 tier - HLT+MT high, or MT+BK low?

[Gadjobrinus]

Hello all -

I've got dimensions working out, just came to a new issue. I've said elsewhere I tend to be paranoid of beating up wort via pumping. Ill-founded, I'm sure, so open to hearing about a single tier, 2 pump system.

I have always used gravity, at home. Manual recirc and xfer to BK. This would be my second system, and first using a pump.

Designing ("designing," he says. How about "stealing design work of talented others," more truthfully?) a two-tier with one pump.

I was committed to the HLT sitting alone on the second tier, feeding the MT sparge via gravity. MT and BL together on the lower tier, with a pump between them. Tri-clovers allow a quick (and fairly sanitary) usage for vorlauf, xfer to BK, and from BK to the fermenter. This was my design previously, though without any pumps.

It occurs to me to pump the sparge water to the MT and to recirc all on the higher, second tier; xfer sweet wort to the BK on the first tier via gravity and from the BK to the fermenter via gravity.

Thoughts on benefits of one over the other? I guess I'm pumping sweet wort regardless, so that issue is probably moot. We certainly pumped everything, including mash, in my only commercial setting. Anyway - appreciate your thoughts on why one over the other. Thanks.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I hope this is OK to post photos from another site like this, and I know everyone here more than knows what I mean, but basically:

v.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Well, it didn't seem this thread lit passions exactly, lol, but for what it's worth, I'm now thinking of a single tier and 2 pumps. My body as a whole is shot, and separately, my back is shot. Lifting 5 gallon HLT water to fill it on the second tier, or dealing with a MT full of spent grains on a second tier, well....none of it is appealing. Having 2 pumps and all vessels on 1 level (2' off the ground) will provide a lot of options.

I think. As always a respect the engineers here, and appreciate all input. Thanks.

 

[Gravity]

Well, it didn't seem this thread lit passions exactly, lol, but for what it's worth, I'm now thinking of a single tier and 2 pumps. My body as a whole is shot, and separately, my back is shot. Lifting 5 gallon HLT water to fill it on the second tier, or dealing with a MT full of spent grains on a second tier, well....none of it is appealing. Having 2 pumps and all vessels on 1 level (2' off the ground) will provide a lot of options.

I think. As always a respect the engineers here, and appreciate all input. Thanks.

Single tier with 2 pumps is what I use , for the same reasons you describe- lifting more than I need to - yea right.
Are you building it yourself? Or buying it? There's a bunch of cheap single tier systems out there

 

[helibrewer]

I use a 3 tier, but for 2 tier I would go with HLT high, MT and Kettle low. If you go single tier, you should be able to use a small DC pump between the HLT and MT. Use a March/Chugger between the MT and BK, that way you can also use it for whirlpooling in the kettle if you wish.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Single tier with 2 pumps is what I use , for the same reasons you describe- lifting more than I need to - yea right.
Are you building it yourself? Or buying it? There's a bunch of cheap single tier systems out there

Hi Gravity - thanks. Though I enjoy DIY stuff to my abilities, I think on this one, it's likely going to be pieced together from different people and the frame welding handed out to a skilled welder for ss mig welding.

I've seen several systems, most in the neighborhood of $1300-1500 or so. Do you have some sources, at all? Thanks again.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I use a 3 tier, but for 2 tier I would go with HLT high, MT and Kettle low. If you go single tier, you should be able to use a small DC pump between the HLT and MT. Use a March/Chugger between the MT and BK, that way you can also use it for whirlpooling in the kettle if you wish.

Thanks Heli. On another thread, the poster linked to a $20 pump from e-bay that another poster mentioned a great use for, I thought - recirc cold pre-immersion coil water. But hadn't thought of a different pump for the water side. Is there one you might recommend, for me to take a look at?

Thank you as well!

 

[eric19312]

Here is an older photo mine.

What I like:
MLT is at good height to stir
BK is at good height to gravity drain to fermentor
But: HLT is sort of high for dumping in buckets of water. Not such a big deal but I do keep thinking to get a food grade hose for filling the HLT.

Since that photo was taken I've changed:
Built a controller running a solenoid valve on the mash tun. Designed more or less after Blichmann Tower of Power. With the setup in the picture I was watching the temp on the plastic thermometer and turning the burner under the mash tun on and off at a very low flame.
Added a rotometer to the output of the mash pump to monitor flow during mash and lauter
Added a Blichmann autosparge to the mash tun got tired of manually balancing in vs out.
**Added a Second Pump**
I know you are thinking the advantage of 2 tier system is you can get away with only one pump. But when I do back to back batches I like to have one pump for running the whirlpool on the BK while the other pump is recirculating the mash tun. Also the plastic in my rotometer may or may not be safe above 170F and requires hops including pellets be contained in a spider or bags.

All in all I am very happy with the design.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thanks Eric, that was basically my configuration on my first setup, only I had no pump - manual recirc, and manual xfer to BK using a kind of grant. Primitive, but it worked well. Sparge was a ss coil that I got from St. Pat's, when they were still doing homebrew. I had no issues then but since then life's road has found fit to put a few pebbles in the way, so, yeah, lifting the water that high is not fun, as you say. Maybe it's as simple as a food grade hose, as you mention!

Interesting idea on the back to back need to clear the brewhouse and your second pumping. I know myself - spirit's willing but the body's weak, lol. I used to have my keggle system on the first floor of Goose, work all day, brew after (or much, much earlier, to he night's brewer's consternation), clean the brew system and cart a sanke in the truck for home. Up stairs, O2, pitch, and in to Fridge. Dead. Migraines.

Want to be "not dead" this time around, 20 years later.

 

[eric19312]

Thinking about it I'd change my vote to single tier system. The two pumps I need on my two tier system would still let me do everything I need to do on a single tier. I can't lauter second batch until the BK is empty anyway.

....I would want long enough lines so that my whirlpool pump could run HLT to MLT during lautering step. This way my MLT out pump keeps the rotometer for watching recirc and lauter flows.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thinking about it I'd change my vote to single tier system. The two pumps I need on my two tier system would still let me do everything I need to do on a single tier. I can't lauter second batch until the BK is empty anyway.

....I would want long enough lines so that my whirlpool pump could run HLT to MLT during lautering step. This way my MLT out pump keeps the rotometer for watching recirc and lauter flows.

Thanks Eric. Sorry, having a bit of a tough time seeing what you're doing. So, your whirlpool pump - which I assume you mean, it runs from Bk-BK, for creating the whirlpool, can be switched over to run sparge water to the MLT during lauter, yes? And at the same time, you'd have your second pump going through a rotameter to manage your recirc and lauter out?

Do I have that right?

Thanks again.

 

[eric19312]

Thanks Eric. Sorry, having a bit of a tough time seeing what you're doing. So, your whirlpool pump - which I assume you mean, it runs from Bk-BK, for creating the whirlpool, can be switched over to run sparge water to the MLT during lauter, yes? And at the same time, you'd have your second pump going through a rotameter to manage your recirc and lauter out?

Do I have that right?

Thanks again.

I think so

On 2-tier single batch I run
Mash:
MLT-out to MLT-in through mash pump
Lauter:
HLT-out to MLT-in via gravity
MLT-out to BK-in via mash pump
Whirlpool:
BK-out to BK-in via kettle pump
followed by BK-out to fermentor via either kettle pump or gravity depending on if I am in a hurry
None of the line lengths is more than 3 feet on this configuration and I have a full set of interchangeable lines with cam locks.

To do this on a single tier I would
Mash:
MLT-out to MLT-in through mash pump
Lauter:
HLT-out to MLT-in via kettle pump
MLT-out to BK-in via mash pump
Whirlpool:
BK-out to BK-in via kettle pump
followed by BK-out to fermentor via either kettle pump or gravity depending on if I am in a hurry


This would require at least one fairly long line to get from HLT out to the kettle pump. Not a deal breaker by any stretch. I use two stainless center inlet chugger pumos but am thinking I could pretty easily work with one of those cheaper food grade plastic pumps for the mash pump where temperatures are lower and flow rates tend to range from 0.25 to 2.0 gallons per minutes (slowest lauter rate I use to fastest mash recirculation rate).

 

[Gadjobrinus]

OK great, thanks Eric. More and more it just seems to make sense to go to 1 tier. BTW - I've seen conflicting info on this - but to burp the pumps and also to have a means to draw test samples off of the MLT, I think I'll be putting in a Tee on the MLT-BK pump. On which side should that be installed? I've always presumed the inlet side should be totally left alone, but many advise putting this tee on the inlet side. Any thoughts, anyone?

 

[eric19312]

You want the t on the outlet side if you are using it to flood the head.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thanks, Eric.

 

[Gravity]

Hi Gravity - thanks. Though I enjoy DIY stuff to my abilities, I think on this one, it's likely going to be pieced together from different people and the frame welding handed out to a skilled welder for ss mig welding.

I've seen several systems, most in the neighborhood of $1300-1500 or so. Do you have some sources, at all? Thanks again.

You can always check Craigslist or this forum, just as many people get out of home brewing as get into it. You can probably find something gently used for cheap

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thanks Gravity. I do check CL quite a bit for components, not so much for brewing stands, etc., but will. And thanks for the note on this site as well. Funny it didn't occur to me!

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

I voted , but after using a 3 tier for a few years, and then switching to single tier, id never use anything but single again . just so much easier. ...and I'm not sure but you might be able to run a 3-vessel system on a single pump using a couple 3-way valves . WCS, you have to buy 2 pumps .

 

[kh54s10]

I have a 3 tier gravity system. I don't lift anything heavier than the dry grain into the mash tun, and then the spent grain to the compost heap. Though I do have to take the fermenter into the house and then the basement. A single tier would not help with that.

So I have no pumps. Far less complicated tubing.

If I go electric, which I hope to someday, it will either be a Grainfather type system or a single tier like the Spike Brewing Buy once Cry once turnkey system.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

KH54, there was a time when I huffed 400 kegs a day on to pallets and got them out. That poor back was a long time ago and I have a systemic neuro thing, too, that I have to play nice with. And I completely hear you on the "less complicated." I was actually thinking of just that, today. My HLT dropped via gravity into the MLT, and both my tun and kettle had copper tubing of appropriate length for what the vessels did; and I moved everything by hand, ladle by ladle, and loved it. And I admit, I was proud of those beers.

I'm still not settled, but about 90% there. Just older, just more dinged. Very intrigued by the "outdoor fermentation chambers" controlled by 2-way thermos that I've seen on this site. I'd love to roll the wort into it's little outdoor home. Or actually, (and I think it's someone from site - please forgive me, fellow brewer, as I got it on google while searching for something - but man, is it beautiful):

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I voted , but after using a 3 tier for a few years, and then switching to single tier, id never use anything but single again . just so much easier. ...and I'm not sure but you might be able to run a 3-vessel system on a single pump using a couple 3-way valves . WCS, you have to buy 2 pumps .

Thanks SleepyCreek. I only saw it was your post, just now - isn't it you who built the outdoor fermentation chamber???

 

[day_trippr]

[..]I got it on google while searching for something - but man, is it beautiful):

That's Kal's electric brewery. The guy has some skills

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

Thanks SleepyCreek. I only saw it was your post, just now - isn't it you who built the outdoor fermentation chamber???

Ya that's me , kegging the maiden voyager (beer) tomorrow! "Shanes Slammin' Pale Ale"

 

[Gadjobrinus]

That's Kal's electric brewery. The guy has some skills

Cool, thanks trippr. Yeah, "cave" doesn't begin to cover it. That brewhouse and lounge is a serious thing of beauty.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Ya that's me , kegging the maiden voyager (beer) tomorrow! "Shanes Slammin' Pale Ale"

Very inspirational, sleepy! Go get 'em on your brew!

 

[Gravity]

Cool, thanks trippr. Yeah, "cave" doesn't begin to cover it. That brewhouse and lounge is a serious thing of beauty.

:rockin:

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Guys,

I need 4 x 20' of metal. I just priced it out with Metals Depot and 2x2 16 gauge mild, with shipping, will be $376, and ss in the same dimensions would be $678 with shipping. Not enough difference at all for me to waive the benefits of stainless, I think.

Just asking if anyone has a better source for buying tubing like this? Thanks.

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

you can't find your steel locally ?
Also , don't paint yourself into a corner by only considering 2x2. Even 1x1x16ga is plenty strong as long as it's built correctly. Case in point , the pics on the first page of the thread don't use 2x2.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

you can't find your steel locally ?
Also , don't paint yourself into a corner by only considering 2x2. Even 1x1x16ga is plenty strong as long as it's built correctly. Case in point , the pics on the first page of the thread don't use 2x2.

Sleepy, thanks. Yep, I actually have found some sources locally and through a friend, a welder. And an old friend from my brewing days, himself a fabricator, regularly works out of this welder's shop. So glad I'm not going in blind - he hasn't quoted from my final plans yet, but he's fair. My original pitch got me a mild stand, finished, $500 all in, which seems fair.

Thanks on the "overbuilt" issue. I hadn't noticed but I did go back and look at the photos and I see what you mean. Weirdly, from my amateur's perspective, the Ruby lays on the broad side of its tubing, at least in places. Seems odd, on looking at it.

So, presuming 25 # of mash, 20 gallons of total water, that's couple hundred pounds, or close. What would you realistically think would be safe, with a reasonable margin for error (e.g., I'm not the master designer, for instance. Though this fabricator is top notch).?

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

I'd talk to your fabricator about it, he's got the plans and experience to say whether your material can be slimmed down, and the design fortified with some corner gussets. Eric might chime in, but it looks like his was entirely 1".

Here is an older photo mine.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Great. Thanks, Sleepy. My guy has made the point that even untreated mild would last a long time, even if rusted, before it's an issue. He's making the point that ss is so expensive, do I really need it? Kind of thing. Pitching the possibility of going thicker (say, 11 gauge) mild, paint it, knowing the issue of flame burning off, etc.- and I still come out substantially ahead on material and labor costs.

So I was redrafting plans. Perhaps I should ask him if he has any thoughts on this, before drawing the plans up. Thanks Steve.

 

[eric19312]

Mine is all angle iron. I believe 1x1x1/8. plenty strong.

 

[iijakii]

Bit late to the party -- but MT on a tier above the BK. Ive heard of a bunch of grain compaction issues from people before. Ive personally witnessed it only once. A 10min interlude and decent stir broke that up, but it was frustrating to be sure. Also screw pumps. One thing I always see on here is how ridiculously high the first tier is. You can easily go a 2 tier and have the top be stirrable.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Mine is all angle iron. I believe 1x1x1/8. plenty strong.

Thanks Eric. I think my first rig was a 2-tier (HLT high) with 1x1 mild as well, and it did fine. Just don't know what I'd be looking at moving up to 20.

Nice looking brewery, btw.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Bit late to the party -- but MT on a tier above the BK. Ive heard of a bunch of grain compaction issues from people before. Ive personally witnessed it only once. A 10min interlude and decent stir broke that up, but it was frustrating to be sure. Also screw pumps. One thing I always see on here is how ridiculously high the first tier is. You can easily go a 2 tier and have the top be stirrable.

Thank you iijakii. I had to do a double take originally - "screw pumps." I thought this was a species of pump I'd never heard of (which wouldn't surprise me, lol). You do mean, no pumps, right? If so, a few questions, if you don't mind.

If HLT and MT are both on the same level, without a pump, how do you sparge? (I only fly sparge, though I did a kind of "hybrid" too, from time to time, to see if it was an authentic method - allow the water column to build significantly, then fall, to see if the careful variation in water column acted as a kind of "pump.").

Can you speak more to the grain bed issue - unfamiliar. Are you manually recirc'ing, as I used to do? Sorry for the confusion.

Finally, with a low first tier, how do you transfer into a fermenter?

Thanks again.