1st AG, No Sparge BIAB, mash temps all over the place

[LowNotes]

I brewed my first All Grain batch using the No Sparge BIAB method outlined in the BIAB Sticky thread on the AG threads at HBT. I started with a Belgian IPA all-grain kit in order to practice with a known viable recipe. My grain bill was:

-8 lbs Belgian Pilsner Malt
-1.5 lbs Wheat Malt
-Specialty grains, 8oz Cara-20
-Specialty Grains, 4oz Acidulated malt

Added the following during the boil:
-1.5oz Sterling Hops (60 mins)
-0.5oz Sterling Hops (20 Minutes)
-1lb Clear Candi Sugar (15 Minutes)
-1oz Ahtanum Hops (15 Minutes)
-1oz Ahtanum Hops (5 Minutes)

My question has to do with some problems I encountered during the mash, here is what happened.

-Started with 7.5 Gallons of water, raised to strike temp. of 170F
-After adding grains, had a mash temp right at 152F, all good so far
-I didn't insulate my brew-pot well enough and also didn't check on the temps often enough (didn't check at all...) and after the 60 minute mash, the temp had fallen to 140F
-My plan was to raise the temp back to 170F per the original BIAB thread for the mash-out, however due to improper themometer placement, I accidentally raised the mash temp to 190F (ahhhhh!)
-I removed the grain right away
-After fretting a good bit and consulting HBT for any similar situations, I decided to just proceed as if everything had gone according to plan.
-The 60 minute boil went fine, and I ended up with just about 5.25 Gallons of wort in my fermenter. The wort smells good, and my air lock was showing action after a little less than 24 hours, so I am cautiously optimistic.

Has anyone else ever had such wild fluctuations when mashing? Have I likely added bad compounds to my beer from the high/low temps? If so is there anything that can be done at this point?

Luckily I have some plans in mind to keep the pot more insulated, and I won't make the same mistake with my thermometer place ment again, so I should be able to keep this situation from repeating itself. Unless the beer turns out to be totally delicious, in which case I found my new secret recipe...

My first post ever, please be gentle

 

[LowNotes]

Oh, some extra information:

I pitched dry yeast, nothing fancy and fermentation is definitely underway.
The OG of the post-boil wort was 1.063 (it was 1.060 at 85F, and a book I had on had said the temp difference for a hydrometer calibrated at 60F resulted in about a 4.5 point difference in reading at 90F, so I'm guess 1.063 is pretty accurate)

The OG makes me think I am at least in the ballpark as far as mash efficiency, I am mostly just worried I have tannins or other bad-guys in my wort.

 

[geer537]

If it is anything like mine, the og will finish high. You may have converted long chains of sugars that the yeast cannot turn into alcohol. There may also be a bit of tannins in there depending on the time spent at 190. Will you be kegging this batch or bottling?

 

[TopherM]

Few tips:

1) On the step where you insulate your kettle. If you don't have an old sleeping bag or a heavy blanket around your house, go get one at goodwill/salvation army. Make sure it is an old one, because it might get a little scorched. Wrap the crap out of that brew kettle for your 60 minute mash. Remember heat rises, so it is really important to have a good layer on the top. That's the easiest way to keep your mash temp within 1-3 degrees throughout the mash without having to do anything else.

2) When you mashout, remember that the idea is to get up to 170 over a 10 minute period, NOT to heat to 170 immediately. Stir your mash like a madman during the mashout, and your internal mash temp will be pretty close to the temp of the wort around it, plus you'll get more conversion from the agitation.

The mistakes you made on your first brewday were pretty minor in the scope of things. Your efficiency is going to be a little low, and you'll probably have a lighter bodied beer, but besides that, you've made AG beer!!

 

[LowNotes]

If it is anything like mine, the og will finish high. You may have converted long chains of sugars that the yeast cannot turn into alcohol. There may also be a bit of tannins in there depending on the time spent at 190. Will you be kegging this batch or bottling?

I'll be bottling, kegs are still a long way off on my wish list.

So if the OG finishes high, would that mean a beer that is sweeter in flavor and lower in ABV?

As far as the time spent at 190F, I pulled the bag out as soon as I saw that temp in my brew-pot. So it likely wasn't at 190F for very long, but it was probably in the range of 170-190F for 10 minutes or so while I had the burner on.

 

[LowNotes]

Few tips:

1) On the step where you insulate your kettle. If you don't have an old sleeping bag or a heavy blanket around your house, go get one at goodwill/salvation army. Make sure it is an old one, because it might get a little scorched. Wrap the crap out of that brew kettle for your 60 minute mash. Remember heat rises, so it is really important to have a good layer on the top. That's the easiest way to keep your mash temp within 1-3 degrees throughout the mash without having to do anything else.

2) When you mashout, remember that the idea is to get up to 170 over a 10 minute period, NOT to heat to 170 immediately. Stir your mash like a madman during the mashout, and your internal mash temp will be pretty close to the temp of the wort around it, plus you'll get more conversion from the agitation.

The mistakes you made on your first brewday were pretty minor in the scope of things. Your efficiency is going to be a little low, and you'll probably have a lighter bodied beer, but besides that, you've made AG beer!!

Re: #1 - Hehe, yeah after my mash I talked with SWMBO and came to an agreement on what blankets will be allowable for brewing. Luckily I have an old polar-fleece type blanket that should do a very good job of keeping the temps in range, and it can get as scorched/dirty as it has too. If I still have problems with just the blanket, I have some towels I can throw on top also.

Re: #2 - Ah, okay. That is something I misunderstood in that case. I basically was trying to get it to 170F ASAP, and was going to let it sit at that temp for 10 minutes prior to removing the bag. If I am understanding you correctly, I should instead try and find the right heat setting to have the temp hit 170F right at the 10 minute mark, and then remove the bag right at that point?

Sounds good, thanks for the input! If all I lose is a little efficiency I would be perfectly fine with that. I'll try and post a follow up after bottling and tasting just to share how it actually turned out. I have to admit, I was still pretty proud to have turned a bunch of boring grains into magical beer!! I'll keep my fingers crossed for the next few weeks

 

[geer537]

You are correct- Higher FG means lower alcohol and sweeter.

However the time spent at 190 was pretty limited so I believe your beer should finish out. Only time will tell. Keep us posted on what the FG is. TopherM gave you some pretty sound advice for the next brewday. You should be good to go with this beer. CONGRATS!

 

[TopherM]

If I am understanding you correctly, I should instead try and find the right heat setting to have the temp hit 170F right at the 10 minute mark, and then remove the bag right at that point?

Yeah, that's the idea, but no big whoop if you are off by a few minutes here or there.

Also, just wanted to let you know that because of the thermal energy of the mash, even when you heated the wort around it up to 190, you likely didn't raise the temp of most of the mash up more than a few degrees, so it wasn't that big of a deal. I've even accidentally BOILED my wort during the mashout, and my thermapen was still only reading about 179-180 as the internal temp of the mash. It takes alot if you aren't stirring constantly to get the wort mingling with the grain and even out the temps.

 

[bschoenb]

In the summer in my garage it's easier to control Mash temps then in the Winter; I "Tied" an old blanket around the kettle and also cover w/an old blanket as well. In the summer, I loose maybe a degree; in the winter I can loose 5 degrees for 8 gallons of Water.

since I tie my bag w/ a host; I'll keep an eye on the temp and if needed I'll add a little heat to the kettle about half way through to keep the temp up (you need to fiqure out how to do this on yours ~ Take the Blanket off... I know this from personal experience, not good?!) I also always do a mash out to 170.

 

[thughes]

Congratulations, you made beer.

 

[Boek]

What does SWMBO stand for. I gather it is the lady of the house but can't figure out the acronym.

 

[TriageStat]

She who must be obeyed

 

[Boek]

Makes perfect sense. Its the truth too. I already found out how key it is to keep the lady happy (no messes, minimize smells etc). Nothing scuttles a hobby faster then disapproving wife.

 

[LowNotes]

Thanks again to everyone who commented on my first AG attempt, here is an update after bottling:

-The beer actually finished with a pretty low gravity, which is good, but not exactly what I expected. FG = 1.011 (ABV is approx 7.5% I think, don't remember exactly)

-The beer was very VERY cloudy when bottling. I didn't use any whirlfloc/Irish Moss/Gelatin, so that may be the only reason. I'm hoping after bottle conditioning and chilling they will clear up some, but I don't have high hopes for any real clarity. All future brews will be getting half a whirlfloc tab.

No tasting notes yet, I am still pretty turned off by warm + flat beer so I don't typically sample before carbing and chilling, but it smelled like a Belgian IPA!

 

[enkamania]

Make sure to pour in the grains slowly and stir well. I put a water heater blanket around my pot and a blanket over the top

 

[LowNotes]

I threw one of these in the fridge on Saturday and gave it a taste Monday. I know it has only been in bottles a week, but I like to taste it periodically to gauge how flavors develop over time.

This did not taste very good on the first tasting. I think it still has hope in the next few weeks, but so far it has a slight sour and/or sweet taste I can't quite put my finger on. It also has an odd taste I would almost describe as "doughy"...I can taste the alcohol, which at 7.5% ABV isn't really a surprise, but I was actually almost expecting it to be worse at this stage.

I may be trying to justify this to myself, but in a weird way I feel like the sweet/sour, "doughy" and alcohol flavors might actually be really good if they blend together better. Does maturation of flavor work like this? Can it be a sort of blending of flavors, or will things just change willy-nilly?

I guess I will find out in a couple weeks, I will post a follow up as things progress. Oh, the beer still has extremely low clarity.

 

[tre9er]

it's young. You're tasting a malty and yeasty combination that comes off like dough/bread. Give it time. I had my first beer, a Kolsch, come out sweet and yeasty and I actually drank the crap out of it before it had been 3 weeks in the bottle

YOU made it, so enjoy!

As for the cloudiness, I've begun lining a colander with voile (material like the BIABag) and clothes-pinning it around the edges, then running my siphon into that atop my fermenter. My first few beers had lots of trub/hops and were cloudy as a result, not just cloudy, but like floaties. Also be super careful when racking to bottling bucket not to agitate anything and keep siphon off the bottom. Leave the milky stuff alone. Then let the bottling bucket settle a bit and don't bottle the last cloudy bit.

 

[RM-MN]

Beers definitely do change as they mature. With the high ABV of your beer I wouldn't be surprised if it took a month and a half to maybe 3 months to get really smooth. Try really hard to not drink all of it before that time.

 

[LowNotes]

Yeah, I was expecting it to be better in 2-3 more weeks, it is very nice to hear that other people have had similar flavors also. I tried my first 2 batches (extract) after a week, and they tasted young, but not like this. Granted, one was a nut brown ale, and the other a porter, so the flavors were going to be different than a Belgian IPA to begin with.

As for the cloudiness, I didn't really sipohon anything from the bottom, there are just a ton of particulates in suspension. I think my weird mash temps must of had something to do with this, also I didn't use any kind of clarifying agent at all. My second all grain batch has been in the fermenter about 10 days now, I used a whirlfloc tab, and it has made an enormous difference in clarity. You could see so much stuff drop out after the boil, I was pleasantly surprised how well it worked.

 

[LowNotes]

Just a final update on my first AG:

So I put one of these in the fridge last weekend, poured and tasted on Sunday, and it was significantly better. Most of the weird off-flavors were gone, the only flavor that I was still hoping for a reduction in was it started to have a pretty noticeable alcohol flavor (not really surprising to me at 7.5% ABV).

Since the beer was drinkable I have been putting a couple more in the fridge each day and drinking a couple already cold ones from the day before. It got better and better, and on Wednesday I had a buddy over so I gave him one to try, and he actually really liked it! The alcohol flavors had mellowed out, and the rest of the malt and hop flavors are still improving, but they are already pretty good I'd say. I also took a few to my brothers place last night, he started hombrewing around the same time I did, and he thought it tasted good too.

I am feeling like I can safely call this batch a success despite the clarity issues and my wildly inconsistent mash temps. Beer is pretty resilient stuff I guess

 

[benstetson]

Not trying to hijack this thread but I wanted to post my similar experience for some opinions.

I also recently did a 5 gallon BIAB, my first AG, and had some issues with mash temps. From this thread and some others I know now not only do I need to be more familiar with my setup but stir more and probably insulate.

I started with the Caribou Slobber AG kit. I can't yet afford a mill plus as with LowNotes it's easier being my first AG. Per Beersmith I started with 6.5 gallons of water which I know now is not enough as I ended up with 4.4 post boil.

I started with a 165deg strike temp. Too my surprise after adding my grain and stirring the temp jumped to 170deg! I immediately added ice cubes to get my temp down since this was around MO temps, not what I want at the first part of my mash. In less than 5 minutes I got my temp to my desired mash temp of 153 and was able to hold it with a small amount of heat added about half way through. I finished hopping, boiling, etc as usual.

I ended up with 1.050 at 4.4 gallons. Doing the math that's 56% efficiency compared to the desired minimum of 70%. I have read that BIAB requires usually a finer mill, between that and my almost reverse step mash I contribute this to my low efficiency.

I know now that I need to start with a lower strike temp, with BIAB and more water the grist does not seem to lower it as much. I need to stir A LOT to keep my thermometer accurate. A finer mill if possible, and possibly insulate for the 60 min mash.

I have sticky wort and a gravity reading so I definitely have convertible sugars. Don't have iodine but with the temps I'm sure I have lots of non fermentable sugars. I'm thinking I will have some off flavors possibly and definitely not the body the recipe is aiming for. Opinions?

I will post back results after bottling.

 

[LowNotes]

Hehe, I wasn't expecting this thread to ever get resurrected, but I am glad it has proven helpful to someone other than me!

So I now have 8 All Grain batches under my belt, and have gotten my process much more "dialed-in" than it was on my first attempt with the wild mash temps. Hopefully I can pay-it-forward with my own advice, here goes:

1. As you noted, you will probably want to start with closer to 7.5 gallons of water, and then fine tune it. Based on the volumes you had, I think it is very close to my experience, so 7.5 will probably be a good starting point (unless you are limited by kettle size)

2. when I mash-in, I have the heat turned OFF (I am assuming yours was on if the temp increased...if not you might have bigger issues ) The benefit of this is that once you find the magic strike temp for your setup, you don't need to worry about having the heat on juuuuust the right setting. Just hit the temp, turn off the heat, and mash-in.

3. On to the efficiency problems - first off, just increasing your volume of water should help a good bit. The next most important things are: Did you mash out, and if so what was the process? (I learned in this very thread to raise the temp over a 10 minute period to 170 degrees while stirring like crazy, I never get this timing/temp 100% perfect, but getting close is good enough) When you pulled your grain from your kettle, did you squeeze the hell out of it? This is a must-do step for BIAB in my opinion, as I will typically get another .5-.75 gallons of wort from the grains (plus this is relatively "rich" wort).

All that said, you might still end up a little lower than 70% efficiency, as is the nature of BIAB, but I am sure you can improve on the 56%.

Based on my experience, your beer should still end up plenty tasty. It likely won't have the ABV the recipe was supposed to provide, and it will taste a smidge bit different, but all-in-all it sounds like you made good beer! Congrats!

 

[benstetson]

Mash in, had the heat off but my thermometer is mounted around the bottom of 4 gallon mark to avoid heat from the burner. When I added the grist and gave a good stir I had far hotter liquid towards the bottom that jumped my overall temp.

I should have just enough to hit 7.5 gallons of water, or worse case, use a bit less then add say .5 gallons pre-boil. As long as I can get a full batch boil as I believe this contributes to a better overall taste.

Yes when I pulled out my bag of grains the first time I let it drain but did not squeeze. I am going to add a hook so I can give it a good 10 - 15 min drain and squeeze, I know I lost some wort. Also my higher initial temp I'm sure that I had a lot of non fermentable sugars.

I did not mash out since basically I had already started at mash out temps, figured no point in it. I will on future batches and read the proper way to do it as you stated.

Thanks for the feedback, Merry Christmas. Drink beer.

 

[benstetson]

Tasting notes: Beer is a little young, cracked open at 1 week. Amazing, despite my problems I still ended up with really good beer, probably the best beer I've made.

For next batch: I added a hook to allow a good drain and will use a finer crush, this should get my efficiency where I need it. Going to mark my mash paddle so I can better track my volumes pre-boil. Thought about a sight glass but that seems like more work than I need. Stir, maintain the appropriate temps and mash out. I had also used a grain bag for my hops to make cleanup easier, might keep with that too.

Drink beer, enjoy!

 

[RM-MN]

Not trying to hijack this thread but I wanted to post my similar experience for some opinions.

I also recently did a 5 gallon BIAB, my first AG, and had some issues with mash temps. From this thread and some others I know now not only do I need to be more familiar with my setup but stir more and probably insulate.

I started with the Caribou Slobber AG kit. I can't yet afford a mill plus as with LowNotes it's easier being my first AG. Per Beersmith I started with 6.5 gallons of water which I know now is not enough as I ended up with 4.4 post boil.

I started with a 165deg strike temp. Too my surprise after adding my grain and stirring the temp jumped to 170deg! I immediately added ice cubes to get my temp down since this was around MO temps, not what I want at the first part of my mash. In less than 5 minutes I got my temp to my desired mash temp of 153 and was able to hold it with a small amount of heat added about half way through. I finished hopping, boiling, etc as usual.

I ended up with 1.050 at 4.4 gallons. Doing the math that's 56% efficiency compared to the desired minimum of 70%. I have read that BIAB requires usually a finer mill, between that and my almost reverse step mash I contribute this to my low efficiency.

I know now that I need to start with a lower strike temp, with BIAB and more water the grist does not seem to lower it as much. I need to stir A LOT to keep my thermometer accurate. A finer mill if possible, and possibly insulate for the 60 min mash.

I have sticky wort and a gravity reading so I definitely have convertible sugars. Don't have iodine but with the temps I'm sure I have lots of non fermentable sugars. I'm thinking I will have some off flavors possibly and definitely not the body the recipe is aiming for. Opinions?

I will post back results after bottling.

If you want to stick with BIAB a mill need not be expensive. I bought a cheap Corona style mill (less than $30 on Amazon) and this mill can be used with a conventional tun if you condition your malt (adding moisture so the husks don't grind up as much). With the grain mill set fine I usually get near 80% efficiency. If you are buying enough grain to get the planned OG and are getting 56% efficiency, that change in efficiency will quickly pay for the cheap mill.

Tasting notes: Beer is a little young, cracked open at 1 week. Amazing, despite my problems I still ended up with really good beer, probably the best beer I've made.

if you think the beer is good now, wait until you taste the next one in 3 more weeks. You can expect better head retention then too.

 

[brewvac]

I'm enjoying catching up with this thread. One of the best lessons I've learned from HBT is trust in the fact that it is harder than we think to really mess up a beer, and patience will pay off. I use to have a very hard time waiting to open the first bottle of a new batch, and now I won't touch it any sooner than 3 weeks after bottling. I brewed my first stout in August and waited two months after bottling to taste it. It was delicious at that point and was even better after another month.

Congrats to all the new AG brewers!