1900w immersion heater element : safe to 120v?
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need to plug into a 20 amp receptacle, like on a kitchen counter. two of them will not work.
No. Amps is I=P/E so 1900/120=15.83A. Which is already over the 15 amp limit. Also, that is the element only not including pumps or anything else.
FuzzeWuzze
I Love DIY
Goto home depot or your frenchie equivilent and install one yourself? Only like $10 bucks for a 20A GFCI Breaker i think
Goto home depot or your frenchie equivilent and install one yourself? Only like $10 bucks for a 20A GFCI Breaker i think
This is something I've wondered about. Can I simply replace my 15 amp breakers with 20 amp? I was wondering if the wires in the wall would be to small to handle the additional current.
BrewerDan1
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Be careful changing circuit breakers. The wiring is heavier for the 20 amp vs the 15 amp circuit. What may happen is overloading and overheating the existing wiring. Can you say fire?
headspace
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If you have a 15A breaker, the wires are most likely 14 gauge, unless the person who wired your place was into throwing away money...
Circuits for a 15A breaker are usually wired w/ #14 wire
Circuits for a 20A breaker are usually wired w/ #12 wire
however ... if the outlet you are plugging into is really close to the panel -- like 15'-20' away and not much more, and you're house was built in the last 30yrs or so, you'd actually be fine. Maybe (probably) violating local code, but fine.
But, try your load on the 15A breaker first.
Circuits for a 15A breaker are usually wired w/ #14 wire
Circuits for a 20A breaker are usually wired w/ #12 wire
however ... if the outlet you are plugging into is really close to the panel -- like 15'-20' away and not much more, and you're house was built in the last 30yrs or so, you'd actually be fine. Maybe (probably) violating local code, but fine.
But, try your load on the 15A breaker first.
here is the difference between 15 amp and 20 amp receptacles (assuming quebec is the same as the us):
here in the states, 20 amp receptacles cannot be placed on 15 amp circuits (#14 awg conductors). so if you have a 20 amp receptacle, you should have a 20 amp circuit in the wall (#12 awg conductors).
also note that 15 amp receptacles can be placed on 20 amp circuits but there needs to be more than one receptacle on the circuit (a single receptacle on a 20 amp circuit would need to be rated 20 amp). the reason i mention this is that even though you may only have 15 amp receptacles on the wall, they may be wired up with a 20 amp circuit (this is what i did when i finished my basement). if this was the case, you could replace one of the 15 amp receptacles with a 20 amp receptacle and be good to go. you would need to pull the receptacle out of the wall to check the conductor size.
again, this is all based on us code, canadian code may have different rules. hire an electrician if you have any doubts.
forgot to mention that the 15.8 amp current for the element is only at rated voltage (120V). if your system voltage is, say, 110 volts, the heater will draw less than 15 amps and could conceivably work on a 15 amp circuit. there couldn't be anything else powered on the circuit though: no lights, clocks, radios, whatever may draw current.
iijakii
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Have you opened your panel and checked if you have 20A circuits? Pretty common on newer homes.
UndeadFred
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Code generally states that the 100% "on" load be 20% less than the rated max.. so on something like a heating element that draws 15A you really need to be on 12 GA and 20A circuit...
If you are in a kitchen built in the last 10 years or so, you should have two 20A circuits run to it by code.. but you have to check. Otherwise limit yourself to a 1200-1500W heater and only one on each circuit!
I use two 120V/2000W elements for my "ghetto" HLT's (don't ask, probably wouldn't get approval of most people here) but I have two 20A circuits at my panel in the basement where I use it. For my eventual BK, I have a Spa panel and a 4500W element just about ready to go. I can use all of them at once, but that is because it's three separate circuits right at the entrance panel.
USA and 115V circuits kinda sucks.. I envy the rest of the world, actually..
Fred
If you are in a kitchen built in the last 10 years or so, you should have two 20A circuits run to it by code.. but you have to check. Otherwise limit yourself to a 1200-1500W heater and only one on each circuit!
I use two 120V/2000W elements for my "ghetto" HLT's (don't ask, probably wouldn't get approval of most people here) but I have two 20A circuits at my panel in the basement where I use it. For my eventual BK, I have a Spa panel and a 4500W element just about ready to go. I can use all of them at once, but that is because it's three separate circuits right at the entrance panel.
USA and 115V circuits kinda sucks.. I envy the rest of the world, actually..
Fred
This only applies to a continuous load, which according to the NEC is a load that is on for 3 hours or more.
UndeadFred
Well-Known Member
I suppose a boil would be at most half that but in my case I am planning to also heat strike/sparge. I am glad I have a bit of over capacity in my wiring where I am going to set up...
This is pretty bad advice...14 AWG is rated for 15 amps...regardless of distance to panel. He will still be drawing more then 15 amps. As I said in a different thread there is a reason why code is the way it is and why they limit 14 AWG to 15 amps. Being fine does NOT mean you are being safe.
stever1000
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What about using one of these if I have the proper amperage but no GFCI plug?
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Defiant-Plug-In-GFCI-Adapter-3-Wire-Grounding-30339036/203741464
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Defiant-Plug-In-GFCI-Adapter-3-Wire-Grounding-30339036/203741464
When it comes to dangerous electricity...follow the rules. They are there for a reason. They have safety margins built in, but those are not to be discarded, else you are operating at risk. Is a fire or blown circuit or other permanent damage worth it? Would you play Russian Roulette with a 12 chamber gun? 24? 48?
-BD
-BD
iijakii
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Nothing wrong with using those for your GFCI protection assuming proper amperage.
UndeadFred
Well-Known Member
OK as an electrical engineer many of the codes and whatnot are very conservative. They are meant in many cases to protect wires inside of walls, etc. Wiring from the plug on does not technically need to follow the NEC. However, if you have not studied electricity then those codes will give you a good guide to follow. Some of us can be more cavalier because we have a lot of experience and understand the risks. It it, however, never a bad idea to design on a safety margin. In fact it is always good design and engineering to do so. Good luck.
stever1000
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Excellent, saves me begging my landlord to change the outlet!
augiedoggy
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In the real world that 1900 w element draws a bit less since its likely actually putting out less wattage.
I have a number of elements and the all draw less than they would at their advertised power output.. For example I have a 4500w 240v element that only draws 17.4 amps and another that draws 18. I have an an 1800w 240 element that draws 7 amps.. Your 1900w element would be fine on a dedicated 15a circuit meaning nothing else can be plugged into other plugs that may be on the same breaker or you could have issues. But theoretically the breaker will pop if there's too much draw.
I have a number of elements and the all draw less than they would at their advertised power output.. For example I have a 4500w 240v element that only draws 17.4 amps and another that draws 18. I have an an 1800w 240 element that draws 7 amps.. Your 1900w element would be fine on a dedicated 15a circuit meaning nothing else can be plugged into other plugs that may be on the same breaker or you could have issues. But theoretically the breaker will pop if there's too much draw.
augiedoggy
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Double post
augiedoggy
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Again if he tests the element he will find it draws less the 15 amps at 100% power.. I would bet money on it.
augiedoggy
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It pretty simple man... To stay legit and meet code you need to use 1500w element with a regular 15 amp outlet.. The 2000w and technically 1900w elements are meant for a 20a plug...codes do have a margin of error and fortunately so does the element... I have never seen one that actually meets the advertised power output. They are all varying degrees of less output but more output would be dangerous... This is why its OK that they fall under but not over their specs.
whether it draws 15 amps or less is irrelevant from a code standpoint. not saying there is an inherent danger by running this on a 15 amp circuit if it in fact draws less than 15 amps but from a code-standpoint, it is a violation.
augiedoggy
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yup...and its as dangerous as tearing the label from a pillow or mattress... The thing is, so building and using a homemade electric brewery for that matter..I got it... I also shared that pointless fact already above about code.. The fact that its a plug in device and not permanently wired in makes a difference. its not as dangerous as screwing a 60w bulb in a 40 fixture and look how often stuff like that is done. at least in this case it IS safe if logic is used and testing is done with a meter. If it draws too much it will pop the breaker just like running the toaster and coffee maker often does for people in an old home...
Again I am talking real world. I think this is a moot point. Maybe its different where you live but here, if there was an issue the insurance company wont cover the damaged if the brewery was the cause. I consulted with an insurance agent on it already... It a nutshell Its a homemade non CE or UL listed appliance... Whether it does or doesnt technically meet code wont matter here. they have an easy out to not pay the claim.
I dont believe using hot water element elements for food applications meets code either... I believe they just recently started selling all stainless elements that are actually tested and rated/Certified to meet the codes for this use and I bet the 1900w one here in question is not one of them.
Anyway its silly to argue over this again... its an old argument that will never end here.
sorry, i was speaking more to the wires in the wall than the element itself. you are correct, try plugging it in and see if it works. i just didn't want the op to get the impression that he was somehow 'automatically' good to go with a 1900w element on a 15 amp circuit: it might work, it might not.
I agree that the arguments will never end. But, it's bad engineering practice to eliminate the safety margins designed in place. That's not refutable.
-BD
-BD
I agree with what you are saying from a math stand point. Regardless, code is there for a reason and it's still a code violation. When dealing with electricity it's always better to be on the safe side it's not worth risking injury or a fire for a few extra watts.
Its not only just about insurance. It's about staying safe and minimalizing the risk to yourself.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Normally I would agree but if you actually look at circumstances in this particular case, a little reason and common sense can go a long way over all the additional expenses involved in rewiring the house for something that is going to draw less than 15 amps in reality (And reality is more important than armchair forum debates) Which is why I pointed out that the 1900w elements are not actually 1900w ... they are easy to check with a multimeter if one is concerned but the .86amps that it would theoretically draw over 15 amps if in fact there was some chance it really was at the 1900w rated limit wouldnt be an issue. it it is the breaker will pop unless theres something wrong with the breaker... and in that case this will help you test and remove an uunsafe breaker right
If its a concern pick up one of those free harbor frieght multimeters and test it.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
ok but you are missing the point that the elements are not correctly rated at the right power to begin with... Every element vary's a bit in actual power output. because they are manufactured for like $2 a piece they just use a foolproof system of rounding up the power output to the closest standard advertised size. To save money they test then as long as they come remotely close but still fall under the rating they are labeled as such...
Its not unusual for a 1500w element to actually put out 1200w for example.
THIS is why a smart engineer would check the element and build accordingly... You are still allowed to think for yourself you know. If the element draws 13.5 amps it would be foolish to rewire your house just to meet a code which relates to an element that draws 15.86amps or whatever when thats not really what you have. You would STILL meet code if your element is actually closer to an 1800w element and draws under 15 amps which I am fairly certian it will be.
I'll dumb it down... if you have an element that draws under 15 amps you can use the 15 amp circuit plain and simple because your appliance (element) draws less than the circuit is rated for.... The generically labeled box that says 1900w doesnt matter if you actually test the element and find its not 1900w as most arent.
THE CODE IS TO PREVENT DRAWING OVER THE RATED CURRENT. if it draws 15.86 then yes it doesnt meet code even though the wire is rerated and can safely carry that load with no issues...this is a built in safety margin. in this case I see why people would say dont do it even though it would work fine if it wasnt for your breakers rating. In reality many people abuse this when they turn on a bunch of stuff in their house on the same circuit at the same time. the breaker will tolerate it for short periods for things like compressor startups and such. . This is a very very unlikely scenerio since all of the 9 different sized elements I have actually tested with amp meters have shown to draw less than the advertised numbers the factory labeled them as.
Understandable, and I agree. But not everyone is a "smart engineer" or is comfortable with electricity. I do exactly what you are describing at my own house however, I'm still with the rated ampacity of my wire. But for someone who doesn't really know what they are doing I default to code for giving advice.
except when code says you can't.
210.23(A)(1) explicitly states that 'the rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating'. so a 15 amp circuit would limit you to a load that draws 12 amps, regardless of its nameplate rating or whether it is continuous or not.
again, not necessarily a dangerous situation but absolutely a code violation. the code is full of a lot of stuff that doesn't make practical sense but it is what it is. for example, emt needs to be secured within 36" of a box. if it is fastened at 37" is it a dangerous situation? of course not but it is still a violation. but then again, driving 56 in a 55 zone is also a violation.:cross:
personally, i would plug it in and see if it works.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I believe this is also an old argument...except when code says you can't.
210.23(A)(1) explicitly states that 'the rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating'. so a 15 amp circuit would limit you to a load that draws 12 amps, regardless of its nameplate rating or whether it is continuous or not.
again, not necessarily a dangerous situation but absolutely a code violation. the code is full of a lot of stuff that doesn't make practical sense but it is what it is. for example, emt needs to be secured within 36" of a box. if it is fastened at 37" is it a dangerous situation? of course not but it is still a violation. but then again, driving 56 in a 55 zone is also a violation.:cross:
personally, i would plug it in and see if it works.
That 80% code only applies to instances where the max load is being drawn in continuous operation for more than 3 hrs. not for a plug in appliance that only draws for an hr or so.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
You guys should look at the hosehead systems... they use 20a rated power con connectors for 23a 5500w elements.... That certainly doesnt meet code... I believe the owner even has 2 elements wired off of one 30a version of these connectors and has been brewing with it for over a year... not a risk I would take myself but it makes you wonder when it works fine with no overheating or melting of the connector how they rate this stuff sometimes.
i can't speak to arguments before i joined this forum but since the load in question in this thread is plugged into a convenience receptacle, the code section i referenced is totally applicable. there is not a distinction made between continuous and non-continuous for plug-connected utilization equipment. if this device was hard-wired, the referenced code would not apply. not a dangerous situation but a code violation nonetheless.
and i totally agree this is a non-continuous load, as defined by the nec. even a pid controlled element boiling for ten hours wouldn't qualify, as it turns off and on. as silly as it sounds, a load operated for 2 hours, 59 minutes and 59 seconds which is turned off for just one second no longer qualifies as a continuous load. the 'absolutes' in the code can be used to an advantage on occasion.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
i can't speak to arguments before i joined this forum but since the load in question in this thread is plugged into a convenience receptacle, the code section i referenced is totally applicable. there is not a distinction made between continuous and non-continuous for plug-connected utilization equipment. if this device was hard-wired, the referenced code would not apply. not a dangerous situation but a code violation nonetheless.
and i totally agree this is a non-continuous load, as defined by the nec. even a pid controlled element boiling for ten hours wouldn't qualify, as it turns off and on. as silly as it sounds, a load operated for 2 hours, 59 minutes and 59 seconds which is turned off for just one second no longer qualifies as a continuous load. the 'absolutes' in the code can be used to an advantage on occasion.
See this is where I believe using common sense to intelligently use the codes for what they were designed for would come into play... Since there is no logical reason for it and a plug in appliance doesnt need to be inspected for "code" its again a moot point. I dont know of any code enforcement for this sort of thing?
Many of the commercially sold systems dont even meet code for often silly rules like this which were likely implemented for another reason...For example, There are a lot of old high gravity electric brewing panels still kicking around with non power rated speaker wire used for ac power inside them...HG has admitted this and said they have made many improvements to them but the bottom line is these are never inspected to meet codes. that is why they have a disclaimer that its sold as a DIY project. (crazy for what they charge IMHO but thats another topic entirely)
I know there are many refrigerators and such designed for 15amp circuits which draw the full 15 amps (or close to it) at least momentarily... why dont these need to be hardwired?
My house is 180 years old... this would be the least of my worries, ive been updating wiring as I move along remodeling for years and I have some antique appliances like fixtures and record players I know wouldnt meet todays latest everchanging codes. in that 180 years It appears there was never an issue with the primitive stuff while in use..
Bottom line is we are not the authority of what the OP chooses to do... I have seen some downright dangerous wiring and homemade brewing projects and this one wouldnt worry me .. again the breaker should pop if there was an issue they are designed to handle a load safely for so long before popping.. if that happens then the op knows he is overloading the circuit and needs to address it. Just like running a coffee maker and toaster at the same time on one circuit...
Most that plug these things in and pop a breaker dont think twice about codes.
the code allows some flexibility but in many cases it is absolute. i run into this often in my profession, where folks try to argue that with engineering supervision/calculations, they can superseded basically anything in the code. not automatically true. that being said, the authorities having jurisdiction (i.e. the building inspector) grant exceptions all the time, even in residential applications. and you are correct, once stuff is built, it is all but impossible to ensure code is being followed (e.g. plugging too much stuff into a receptacle). one of the foundations of the nec is that listed equipment be used in accordance with its listing or manufacturer instructions. your example of the refrigerator on a 15 amp circuit is a perfect example. code may not automatically require a refrigerator of a certain amperage be on, say, a 20 amp circuit but the manufacturer's instructions may state it is required. since the manufacturer requires it, it is now a code requirement that those instructions be followed. will the refrigerator burst into flames if not on a 20 amp circuit? highly doubtful but it is technically not a proper installation.
all this is sort of out the window with brewing panels since basically none of them are ul listed, even the ones sold commercially (with a few exceptions). getting a ul listing often requires extensive (expensive) testing but that doesn't mean they can't be built to the applicable standards. and why not build them to the standards? if given the option, it only makes sense to do so. like the hosehead systems, those would never pass ul standards, even if they wanted to get them listed. is there honestly some kind of huge savings by going with lesser rated connectors? i can drive my car just fine without a seatbelt but why even bother?
and totally agreed on the op, they can do whatever they want. my biggest 'beef' with all this is disingenuous statements like 'it isn't a code violation' or 'it works so what's the problem' and the like (not saying you said that). folks should at least have the background information and make their own decisions. i have several minor code violations in my house but the distinction is i know they are violations. i've assessed the situation and made what i feel to be an educated decision. someone making a decision based on some guy on the internet saying 'bah, it's cool dude' is bad mojo.
just my $0.02...
all this is sort of out the window with brewing panels since basically none of them are ul listed, even the ones sold commercially (with a few exceptions). getting a ul listing often requires extensive (expensive) testing but that doesn't mean they can't be built to the applicable standards. and why not build them to the standards? if given the option, it only makes sense to do so. like the hosehead systems, those would never pass ul standards, even if they wanted to get them listed. is there honestly some kind of huge savings by going with lesser rated connectors? i can drive my car just fine without a seatbelt but why even bother?
and totally agreed on the op, they can do whatever they want. my biggest 'beef' with all this is disingenuous statements like 'it isn't a code violation' or 'it works so what's the problem' and the like (not saying you said that). folks should at least have the background information and make their own decisions. i have several minor code violations in my house but the distinction is i know they are violations. i've assessed the situation and made what i feel to be an educated decision. someone making a decision based on some guy on the internet saying 'bah, it's cool dude' is bad mojo.
just my $0.02...
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