1/2/3 vessel convertible setup?

[andrewmaixner]

I figured that this can't really be a new idea that I thought of while considering what kind of indoor system to build: an electric setup that can do all of the common methods, depending on how much and how strong of a wort you are making, temperature step requirements, etc:

- 1 vessel BIAB, optional re-circulation
- 2 vessel recirculating (like Brutus-20)
- traditional 3 vessel

I this would let someone start at the low end and slowly build up the system, without sacrificing quality in the older components, as everything could be seamlessly integrated in the next-larger system.

I did a quick sketch:

Anyone already do something like this?

 

[Bobby_M]

Here's a secret. You build the one vessel recirculating BIAB system, brew one batch, the end.

 

[BrunDog]

I agree with Bobby. BIAB is easy, small footprint, etc.

The real decision to do multi vessel depends on your sparge goals. Some claim sparging is better due to higher efficiency blah blah blah, but with a bag you can mill fine and acquire high efficiency anyway.

The only disadvantage of BIAB I can think of is wort clarity.

 

[andrewmaixner]

Here's a secret. You build the one vessel recirculating BIAB system, brew one batch, the end.

I agree with Bobby. BIAB is easy, small footprint, etc.

The real decision to do multi vessel depends on your sparge goals. Some claim sparging is better due to higher efficiency blah blah blah, but with a bag you can mill fine and acquire high efficiency anyway.

The only disadvantage of BIAB I can think of is wort clarity.

That's kind of the feeling I was getting after reading a few thousand pages of posts. A big eBIAB kettle/pump/panel, with occasional use of a recirculating mash tun which I pretty much already have the parts for, probably make anything which I ever would even think about brewing -- it'd probably handle 10 gallons of 1.1+ SG

 

[tmendick]

The only disadvantage of BIAB I can think of is wort going into the fermenter clarity.

Fixed.

I've never had an issue with final beer clarity with BIAB.

 

[Donal]

The only disadvantage of BIAB ....

for me is lifting the bag. When I do the occasional 10g batch the MLT cooler is easier....

 

[JoshuaW]

for me is lifting the bag. When I do the occasional 10g batch the MLT cooler is easier....

Get a winch.

 

[cod3ck]

If this is the case, why are there some many 3 vessel systems out there? Especially those trying to make it work with 2 coolers and a BK (until recently -- myself included).

Doesn't BIAB require more grain to get the same efficiencies?

 

[jlongstreet]

If this is the case, why are there some many 3 vessel systems out there? Especially those trying to make it work with 2 coolers and a BK (until recently -- myself included).

Doesn't BIAB require more grain to get the same efficiencies?

No, if it required more grain, it wouldn't be the same efficiency. That's like saying your car needs twice as much gas to get the same fuel efficiency.

Also, no, BIAB (I'm assuming you mean no-sparge BIAB) isn't necessarily lower efficiency. There's some sugars left behind by the lack of a sparge (but not as much, since the mash is full volume. Also, the ability to crush finer since the bag does the filtering for you, and the ability to squeeze the bag and reduce absorption loss increases efficiency. Plenty of people get 85%+ brewhouse efficiency on BIAB, average is probably 70-75%.

Besides, a couple pounds of base malt per batch savings would take a while to pay for two more vessels, another pump, etc.

The reason why is that it's how commercial breweries do it. There's a lot of things that aren't viable on a commercial scale that are just fine for homebrewers.

 

[BrunDog]

Fixed.

I've never had an issue with final beer clarity with BIAB.

Understood. I think this is a typical accepted minor downside of BIAB, but certainly it can be mitigated by individual brewers. I personally like a 2 vessel design, but hey that's just me.

 

[poptarts]

Understood. I think this is a typical accepted minor downside of BIAB, but certainly it can be mitigated by individual brewers. I personally like a 2 vessel design, but hey that's just me.

I'm with you on this completely this and automation were my driving factors to go 2 vessel over biab. All the trub cant not change the flavor imo, for better or worse or just different idk but I cant imagine it tastes the same.

 

[cod3ck]

The reason why is that it's how commercial breweries do it. There's a lot of things that aren't viable on a commercial scale that are just fine for homebrewers.

Well forget this 3 vessel setup than! I'm taking the coolers to the trash and buying a big $15 grain bag!

 

[Rivenin]

Get a winch.

 

[jlongstreet]

To further clarify, the biggest drawbacks to BIAB are typically: you need a kettle much larger than into-fermenter batch size, around twice as large to be safe, and that with large amounts of grain it's a giant pain in the ass to lift. 14 lbs of grain gets heavy when it's wet, for 10 gallon+ batches it's huge.

Both of those things can be solved, though: get a bigger kettle, attach a rope hoist or a winch.

 

[rossi46]

I do 12 gallon biab batches in a 25 gallon kettle with a rope hoist. I generally get 80-85 % efficiency.

 

[daveMN]

I was originally thinking about building up my brewery in phases similar to what the OP drew up, starting with one -vessel BIAB and ending up with a load of shiny stainless and a Kal panel at the end. TBD on whether I just stay with BIAB since I haven't tried it yet. I was thinking originally that I could brew an extract batch in the HLT while I'm boiling/ cooling batch 1. Kind of a twist on back -to - back brews.

 

[Bobby_M]

To further clarify, the biggest drawbacks to BIAB are typically: you need a kettle much larger than into-fermenter batch size, around twice as large to be safe, and that with large amounts of grain it's a giant pain in the ass to lift. 14 lbs of grain gets heavy when it's wet, for 10 gallon+ batches it's huge.

Both of those things can be solved, though: get a bigger kettle, attach a rope hoist or a winch.

It's not really a much larger kettle. Even if all you did in the kettle was boil, you'd still need a 15 gallon pot for a 10 gallon batch. You can full volume BIAB 28 pounds of grain in a 15 gallon pot. I guess if you plan to brew 10 gallons of beer bigger than 1.070 OG, you'd need to go 20 gallon but for most people the 15 is big enough.

 

[cod3ck]

Alright, so now Bobby and the rest of you have me intrigued to convert from a 3 vessel to BIAB...

Just for kicks, assuming cost wasn't much of a concern--

Would it be worth it to get my hands on this MT, punch a 2 inch hole in the side for an element and tri-clamp attachment (with a welded ferrule), then modify the false bottom so it would sit just above the element?

My thought with this setup is a 10 gallon single vessel eBIAB system, with maybe some kind of quasi-RIMS control since the grain isn't in direct contact with the element...

Good or bad idea? If it worked, the cleanup on this would be sweet!

 

[Bobby_M]

You'd still want to use a grain bag to keep particulates off the element and then you don't need such a restrictive false bottom in the way. Once you recirculate the mash, you don't need insulation. Besides, I don't think the foam in that thing is going to hold up to boiling over and over.

Instead of a $500 pot, you only need a $120 pot and a bag.

 

[jeffmeh]

Some of us enjoy lifting heavy bags of hot grain.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I wouldn't want an insulated vessel while chilling.

 

[TexasWine]

Good or bad idea? If it worked, the cleanup on this would be sweet!

My opinion, bad. You don't want to punch holes in this thing. Maybe SS Brewtech would punch one for you?

Like Bobby said, cheap kettle is the way to go. Insulate with a sleeping bag, jacket, blankets, anything. You could even use his nifty Hot Rods for the boil and not even punch a hole in the kettle.

If you want a circulating eBIAB, get a pump and temp controller, punch a hole and install the element in the kettle. No RIMS needed.

 

[wilserbrewer]

You could even use his nifty Hot Rods for the boil and not even punch a hole in the kettle.

If you want a circulating eBIAB, get a pump and temp controller, punch a hole and install the element in the kettle. No RIMS needed.

Just a thought, I wonder if you could use the nifty brewhardware.com hot rod with a modified false bottom (thinking simply notched to accept the HR), and recirculate and automate E-BIAB. As I understand, you can slip a temp probe inside the hot rod for automation...if so this might be a slick way to recirc., E BIAB w/ temp control with easy fabrication and future flexibility to vary batch / kettle size as the kettle is not system specific modified...

Are you listening Bobby? lol

http://www.houzz.com/photos/4578598...um-6pc-Brew-Kettle-contemporary-cookware-sets

http://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/hotrod.htm

 

[hio3791]

It's not really a much larger kettle. Even if all you did in the kettle was boil, you'd still need a 15 gallon pot for a 10 gallon batch. You can full volume BIAB 28 pounds of grain in a 15 gallon pot. I guess if you plan to brew 10 gallons of beer bigger than 1.070 OG, you'd need to go 20 gallon but for most people the 15 is big enough.

I have a 15.5 Bayou Classic, and for the life of me, I can't fit 20 lbs of grain and do a no sparge. So I use my MT for 11 gal batches and BIAB when I do 5.5 gal. If I could, I would prefer to do 11 gal BIAB. How do you fit all that in a 15 gal kettle?

 

[jeffmeh]

I have a 15.5 Bayou Classic, and for the life of me, I can't fit 20 lbs of grain and do a no sparge. So I use my MT for 11 gal batches and BIAB when I do 5.5 gal. If I could, I would prefer to do 11 gal BIAB. How do you fit all that in a 15 gal kettle?

A few years old, but 26 lbs of grain and 12 gallons of water in a 15 gallon pot.

 

[Bobby_M]

I have a 15.5 Bayou Classic, and for the life of me, I can't fit 20 lbs of grain and do a no sparge. So I use my MT for 11 gal batches and BIAB when I do 5.5 gal. If I could, I would prefer to do 11 gal BIAB. How do you fit all that in a 15 gal kettle?

Grain displaces .075 gallons per pound.
BIAB brewing has low absorption ratios, like as low as .05 gallons per pound.

20 pounds of grain will only hold on to 1 gallon of wort if you squeeze it out as much as possible.

Assuming 1.5 gallons of boil off and .5 gallons of trub loss, you only need about 12 gallons preboil.

So, that's starting with 13 gallons in the pot. When you stir in the grain, that will fill the pot to 14.5 gallons leaving you 1 gallon of headspace in a 15.5 gallon pot. After stirring that grain in, you can add another half gallon just to be sure and still be fine.

 

[hio3791]

Grain displaces .075 gallons per pound.

That's what I was looking for! I know you've upgraded over time and I'm curious Bobby, are you also BIAB?

Thanks Bobby and I'm sorry to have derailed this thread.

 

[Bobby_M]

That's what I was looking for! I know you've upgraded over time and I'm curious Bobby, are you also BIAB?

Thanks Bobby and I'm sorry to have derailed this thread.

Yes, I started with a pot and a cooler, upgraded to the three vessel single tier RIMS, then went back to a pot and cooler when I couldn't use open flames at the shop. Now I'm using eBIAB for simplicity for teaching all grain classes. I can talk and answer questions without worrying too much about mash temps being held.

 

[BrunDog]

Grain displaces .075 gallons per pound.

Mm mm, that sounds awfully low. In my experience, adding 10 lbs raises the MT volume by more than a gallon. You got a source?

 

[Bobby_M]

Empirical measurement when I brew. Just yesterday I had 8 gallons in the pot and stirred in 16 pounds and it rose to just under 9.25. I suppose my sightglass calibration could be wrong but I don't think it is.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I also thought Bobby's #'s were optimistic, so I turned to my favorite rackers calculator, "Can I Mash it"

Well 20 lbs of grain at 2.6 qt/lb (13 gallon strike) yields 14.6 gallons.

Bobby's on the money...

 

[TexasWine]

I did the same and checked with my favorite, the priceless BIAB calculator. Looks like he assumes 0.079, which is in the ballpark of what Bobby said and also corroborates what I've heard, that the grain displaces about as much as it absorbs in a typical BIAB set up.

 

[BrunDog]

Fair enough. Any thoughts if that volume increases over time (e.g. grains swell and occupy more space)?

 

[TexasWine]

Fair enough. Any thoughts if that volume increases over time (e.g. grains swell and occupy more space)?

My hypothesis, it goes in the other direction. It seems that as all the nooks and crannies of the grain particles get filled with water, they would displace less of the water volume. It would be kind of like submerging an upside down beer bottle. If your turn it right side up and replace all that air with water, it takes up less room.

Just my thoughts. Maybe completely wrong.