Yeast pitch rate: Single vial vs. Yeast starter | exbeeriment results!

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Let's say we do this same experiment again and again...would we get the same results? Yes. It was a very controlled experiment. It's not like flipping a coin and I find it hard to believe that you would even use that to compare.

First, we may or may not get the same results; we don't know. This is precisely what we are trying to estimate. We are modeling a random process with a single binary outcome (in this case "are the beers different or not ") where the only influencing factor is the pitch rate, which we can effectively model as binary as well ("low" or "high"). I make the comparison to a coin being flipped to illustrate the fact that, no matter what the higher-level process is, if we are modeling some stochastic process with binary outcomes, the uncertainty in the final estimate is rather high with only one observation. While it is a minor simplification to the true model, I think the coin flipping example illustrates the point that any estimate derived from a small sample size lacks information in the statistical sense.

As a short description, and using the coin example for now, assume we have a coin with unknown bias, which we call p. In a fair coin, the value of p is one half, or .5. We are trying to estimate the posterior over the variable p given data, X, where X is a set that contains one or more observed results. If we use the traditional conjugate prior (the Beta distribution) for the Bernoulli distribution parameterized by p, we can easily (in closed form) compute a posterior estimate for p dependent on the observations we've seen. Further, the volume of uncertainty in the value of p will reduce more and more with more observations in the set X. This can be seen from the formula for the entropy of the Beta distribution. This means that if the set X is small (we only have on observation of an outcome, or 1 experiment in this case) then the uncertainty in the estimate of p is actually pretty high. I used the limiting case in my first post, where I said if you saw only a single flip of the coin (or 1 experimental result) would you trust the frequentist analysis that says "the coin is biased completely" or p = 1. No, of course you wouldn't. Unfortunately, with little or no a priori information about p (low values for the hyperparameters of the Beta distribution), only more data helps in estimating p; what I was saying is that I cannot with any confidence estimate whether or not pitch rate does or doesn't matter from a single experimental outcome.

My hypothesis is that pitch rate is not the only thing that matters; I think gravity, yeast, fermentation temperature, etc. all matter. That's why I said that selecting basically any lager over 1.050 that is pitched and fermented around 50 F will most likely show the opposite. Maibock is another great example. And I think that this particular beer is not as informative because it's an ale with a lot of hops and a fairly clean yeast. I think if you changed that, and made it a high gravity beer requiring a fairly clean profile, and fermented at low temps, you'll likely see a very different result. What I think that this experiment "proves" is that one CAN make a good hoppy, amber beer with OG of ~1.065 with WLP090 when pitching a starter or not, which I think someone else has already noted.

Also, I am definitely not trying to be a jerk. I just proofread this and thought it may come off that way, and if it does, I apologize. I'm just trying to explain what I meant, and why I made the comparison.
 
My hypothesis is that pitch rate is not the only thing that matters; I think gravity, yeast, fermentation temperature, etc. all matter. That's why I said that selecting basically any lager over 1.050 that is pitched and fermented around 50 F will most likely show the opposite. Maibock is another great example. And I think that this particular beer is not as informative because it's an ale with a lot of hops and a fairly clean yeast. I think if you changed that, and made it a high gravity beer requiring a fairly clean profile, and fermented at low temps, you'll likely see a very different result. What I think that this experiment "proves" is that one CAN make a good hoppy, amber beer with OG of ~1.065 with WLP090 when pitching a starter or not, which I think someone else has already noted.

Also, I am definitely not trying to be a jerk. I just proofread this and thought it may come off that way, and if it does, I apologize. I'm just trying to explain what I meant, and why I made the comparison.

I don't think that you came off like a jerk.

What I have to back my view up is only conjecture and my perception of all the beer I brew. It's all good and I'm sure it's all 'under pitched.'

What I gather from your replies is that this experiment is just one of many that we would have to do in order for the 'correct' outcome. I see and I don't totally disagree...however:

I do believe that the results of this wouldn't matter for beer or yeast with an SG of <1.065. As I stated that is just conjecture but I base it on all the beer I brew.
 
what I was saying is that I cannot with any confidence estimate whether or not pitch rate does or doesn't matter from a single experimental outcome.
...
What I think that this experiment "proves" is that one CAN make a good hoppy, amber beer with OG of ~1.065 with WLP090 when pitching a starter or not, which I think someone else has already noted.


I am in agreement with your read of things here. I should point out what the test DID NOT prove. It did not PROVE that the beers were even indistinguishable.

My subjective experience was that they were very nearly identical, if not identical.

But the statistics did not show a "identical" result, the statistics say that they were unable to be reliably distinguished, which is different from being identical.
 
Again, not a counter-argument to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is I'd trust your tasting results more than hers because she is not certified; the reason for that is that I have no other basis to go on. You (and maybe a select few other individuals) are the only person/people that know(s) that she is a great taster. So yes, you may trust her in a triangle test, but how am I supposed to trust her? This is exactly what certification provides (in any field, not just tasting): a way to provide some information to the consumer of their services as to whether or not (and at what level) that person has experience with the task they are performing.

Thus, I am not saying she is better or worse than you or anyone else; I'm saying that since the person reading the experimental results has no idea what qualifications the evaluators of the beer have, then there is a great deal of uncertainty in the result, and that little, and perhaps no, conclusion can be drawn with respect the higher-level question of "how much does pitch rate matter?". For that, I would rather trust the vast amount of literature and lab experimental results that indeed show that pitch rate matters.

I believe that you and I have conversed on this topic before (the validity of experimental results and their impact at the homebrew level), and this is yet another case where I like the experiment, but the data provided is minimal, and effectively proves nothing, because it is a single data point with very subjective metrics (the subjectivity of which, I am arguing, could be mitigated with certification/credentials).


I didn't intend it as a counterpoint, I was agreeing with you. And you probably have discussed this with me before as I have a hate-on for attempts to over science homebrewing. At a 5gal scale, its as much of an art as a science.

And a point I posted earlier that I think got lost in the noise:
When I started homebrewing 5 years ago and the wyeast smack packs were half the size they are now. The mr malty calculator was one of the things that had a huge positive influence on the quality of my beer but now the smack packs have grown but the calculator hasn't changed. ...and not all yeast is the same. If this experiment is going to be redone with English or Belgian yeast, go with the super flocculating, diacetyl bomb producing wy1968 London ESB. There is no way you are making a decent 5%+ ABV, 5gal batch without a starter with that one.
 
Interesting test... My first instinct, on looking at the setup of the test and recipe choice, is that using a beer that has any kind of significant hop presence could mask some flaws or off-flavors. That said...

A buddy of mine and I did a similar test a few years back, with a traditional German bock. I pitched a Mr Malty-recommended starter, he pitched a single smack pack. And the result? Like this experiment saw, the beer with starter took off in a matter of a few hours, while the single smack pack beer required 3 days to show any signs of life - and 2 of those were outside the ferment chamber, so were closer to ale temps to ramp up. Also like this experiment, you could detect very subtle flavor differences between the two (we never tried a triangle test - we weren't quite that sophisticated). But of all the folks that tried them both - our homebrew club included - nobody could really determine a strong preference for one over the other, or detect anything like a flaw. I'd have to look up in my notes what yeast strain we used...

We actually just repeated this test - or are in the process of doing so - with a Munich Dunkel using Wyeast Bavarian Lager Yeast. My starter was a little smaller this time around (using K. Troester's growth estimates these days), and so far the only difference we've seen is mine had about 12 hours less lag time. We'll know more in a couple months how the finished products compare - but I actually suspect that the results will be similar to our last lager experiment. I may talk to him about presenting a triangle test to our club to see if that determines anything interesting.
 
There is no way you are making a decent 5%+ ABV, 5gal batch without a starter with that one.

No offense to the poster, but how specifically do you know that this statement is true? You say 'no way', meaning that you think it is impossible. Have you done an exhaustive search of this assertion? If not, then you probably shouldn't make such a statement.

This is what I like about the Brulosophy experiments, they question these absolute assertions that people like to make that they haven't actually tested.
 
No offense to the poster, but how specifically do you know that this statement is true? You say 'no way', meaning that you think it is impossible. Have you done an exhaustive search of this assertion? If not, then you probably shouldn't make such a statement.

This is what I like about the Brulosophy experiments, they question these absolute assertions that people like to make that they haven't actually tested.

I've done 20+ batches with 1968. It needs a big pitch or it has a weak krausen and flocs out early leaving a ton of diacetyl. so that's at least 19 more data points than the experiment has. I'm lazy and would much rather just pitch a pack directly but it just doesn't work well. There are countless threads on hbt like this https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=267303 see the wyeast response I posted on the last page. Lately I've been brewubg a half batch of <1.040 OG beer and pitch a single smack pack directly to use as a drinkable starter for the next batch. Anything bigger or stronger and it craps out. Maybe this can be overcome with a ridiculous amount of pure O2 but I haven't tried that
 
I've done 20+ batches with 1968. It needs a big pitch or it has a weak krausen and flocs out early leaving a ton of diacetyl. so that's at least 19 more data points than the experiment has. I'm lazy and would much rather just pitch a pack directly but it just doesn't work well. There are countless threads on hbt like this https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=267303 see the wyeast response I posted on the last page. Lately I've been brewubg a half batch of <1.040 OG beer and pitch a single smack pack directly to use as a drinkable starter for the next batch. Anything bigger or stronger and it craps out. Maybe this can be overcome with a ridiculous amount of pure O2 but I haven't tried that

My experience is right on with yours. I think it may have to do with high flocc yeasts and temp control. I've used a number of them recently and it seems like once they get going they don't like to be cooled back down. Some of the yeast just drops out. I'm going to try a lightweight cover like a t-shirt to try an prevent the outside of the fermentor cooling down too much. When I caught 1968 at the right temp while fermentation was finishing up, I got 77% aa.
 
The only rebuttal I have to the write-ups is to the following statement:

the slower completion time means a slower overall turnaround for a batch, if only by a couple days &#8211; this makes a difference if I am trying to get a beer ready for an event of some kind.

Isn't that all negated by taking a couple of days to make the starter?
 
The only rebuttal I have to the write-ups is to the following statement:



Isn't that all negated by taking a couple of days to make the starter?

Not really. I mean... I usually don't have time to brew through the week, but it only takes 10-15 minutes to make a starter if I think I will be brewing next weekend.
 
Not really. I mean... I usually don't have time to brew through the week, but it only takes 10-15 minutes to make a starter if I think I will be brewing next weekend.


If you have time management skills, it's pretty easy to plan things out and save money making yeast starters. Starter takes the amount of time it takes to sanitize a growler, and boil a few cups of water. I mean, that's 30 minutes tops.
 
Not really. I mean... I usually don't have time to brew through the week, but it only takes 10-15 minutes to make a starter if I think I will be brewing next weekend.

That is not what I thought you meant when I read the article. Thanks for clarifying.
 
I think I get the point of this experiment.

Based on my own experience, it strikes a chord with me. I've done several high gravity ales using far less than the recommended yeast amounts when I pitched yeast.

Those ales turned out fine. Amazing good in many instances. In the last couple of years I've made an effort to pitch much larger amounts of yeast into these ales. The results haven't been dramatically different or better. In many cases, they haven't been as good. It has made me wonder about whether or not stressing yeast is as big a deal as folks make it out to be.

Lately I'm beginning to believe that under-pitching isn't as big a deal as it was once thought to be. In fact, I'm thinking that it may not even be much of a big deal at all. What I'm finding to be more important is fermentation temperature and sanitation. Simple basics really.

Larger pitch rates provides quicker turn-arounds, and that is about all. Yeah, there may be a minor difference in taste occasionally. But for me, it isn't anything that is enough to break any batch of beer. In the end, the beer is still good. The difference is so slight, if any at all, that I can't notice it.

Maybe I'm a barbarian that can't taste the difference between a great ale and a fine ale. That could be true. But do I consider it a curse? No. I actually think it's a blessing. Then again, I don't believe my palate is inferior. I think my tastes aren't dependent on folklore. I taste what I taste and I only like what I like. I like my beer.

I've found that I'm as happy with my under-pitched beer as I am with my over-pitched beer. More often than not, the under-pitched stuff is just as good as the other.
 
Thanks for doing all that Ray, was a great read.

You put the chamber temperature probe on the Starter carboy... with the different ferment rates and times do you think there might have been a significant difference in ferment temperatures?
 
Isn't that all negated by taking a couple of days to make the starter?

No, because the starter is made before brewday, so it doesn't affect batch turnaround.

Why do you think you have to buy only one vial?

Pitching multiple vials might decrease lag time, but the advantage of a starter is more than just the pitch rate: a well-timed starter can be pitched into the wort when the yeast are active, meaning you pitch them into the wort and they get right to work. Yeast straight from the vial or a dry packet aren't active when they hit the wort so it takes time for them to get to work. For that reason, a Wyeast smack pack, properly smacked in advance of pitching, should have less lag time because smacking the pack gets the yeast moving as if you had made a miniature starter.
 
Not really. I mean... I usually don't have time to brew through the week, but it only takes 10-15 minutes to make a starter if I think I will be brewing next weekend.


If you have time management skills, it's pretty easy to plan things out and save money making yeast starters. Starter takes the amount of time it takes to sanitize a growler, and boil a few cups of water. I mean, that's 30 minutes tops.
Just plan it out and you can be just as efficient as you would be using any other yeast method
 
I think I get the point of this experiment.

Based on my own experience, it strikes a chord with me. I've done several high gravity ales using far less than the recommended yeast amounts when I pitched yeast.

Those ales turned out fine. Amazing good in many instances. In the last couple of years I've made an effort to pitch much larger amounts of yeast into these ales. The results haven't been dramatically different or better. In many cases, they haven't been as good. It has made me wonder about whether or not stressing yeast is as big a deal as folks make it out to be.

Lately I'm beginning to believe that under-pitching isn't as big a deal as it was once thought to be. In fact, I'm thinking that it may not even be much of a big deal at all. What I'm finding to be more important is fermentation temperature and sanitation. Simple basics really.

Larger pitch rates provides quicker turn-arounds, and that is about all. Yeah, there may be a minor difference in taste occasionally. But for me, it isn't anything that is enough to break any batch of beer. In the end, the beer is still good. The difference is so slight, if any at all, that I can't notice it.

Maybe I'm a barbarian that can't taste the difference between a great ale and a fine ale. That could be true. But do I consider it a curse? No. I actually think it's a blessing. Then again, I don't believe my palate is inferior. I think my tastes aren't dependent on folklore. I taste what I taste and I only like what I like. I like my beer.

I've found that I'm as happy with my under-pitched beer as I am with my over-pitched beer. More often than not, the under-pitched stuff is just as good as the other.

You need to be really careful of thinking like this. Questioning the old ways will lead you down paths that few dare to tread. Next thing you'll find yourself doing is researching pitch rates and then you'll probably find the article where Gordon Strong stated that he often pitches a single smack pack or vial into his lager. Now why would an award winning brewer screw up a batch of lager by pitching such a small amount of yeast? Wouldn't he notice the off flavors produced by the under pitch....or doesn't it produce the off flavors if you treat it right?

Once you begin down the path of questioning these old ways you may decide to explore shorter mash times too.:D
 
All I can say is when I first started ~4yrs ago, my beers took 8-12 weeks of conditioning in the bottle before they were very good beers, before then they were ok but I thought, I won't be brewing that one again. After perusing this site it seemed I was underpitching. So I built a lego stirplate and soon(using Yeast Calk) my beers were awesome in as little as 4 weeks, as soon as carbonation is done. Besides I store a small portion of each starter for making another so I only have to buy 1 pkg. At this time I have 7 strains.
 
I didn't intend it as a counterpoint, I was agreeing with you. And you probably have discussed this with me before as I have a hate-on for attempts to over science homebrewing. At a 5gal scale, its as much of an art as a science.

Sorry about that, gbx. I totally misinterpreted your previous post. Cheers.
 
The experiment in question is a single snapshot with low statistical power and relies pretty mostly on sensory evaluation. Do all yeasts behave this way? Does WLP090 behave like this in other worts? Even in the same wort, what percentage of the time does an underpitched batch still complete fermentation without undesirable off-flavors?

While interesting, I would be very cautious to generalize from this. Will an underpitched beer necessarily give you problems or taste bad? Certainly not. Does underpitching increase the odds for these things? It certainly does.

Very true but I must point out that the status quo, i.e. Mr. Malty website, is just as empirically derived and he's never offered up his raw data for others to review...and we do know that his data is based on one yeast only.
 
Very true but I must point out that the status quo, i.e. Mr. Malty website, is just as empirically derived and he's never offered up his raw data for others to review...and we do know that his data is based on one yeast only.

I think Mr Malty is a good guide but it isn't anything close to science. The numbers that Mr Malty outputs are twice as big as what the yeast manufacturers say is optimal. It assumes that all ale strains require an equal pitch (they certainly do not). It was written years ago and hasn't been changed to reflect the new packaging of both wyeast and white labs. (wyeast packs used to be 25 billion cells but now they are 100 billion) Even the dry yeast has changed since then (nottingham didn't use to be vaccuum sealed). I still use it when repitching slurry but consider it the upper range of what is needed.
 
I think Mr Malty is a good guide but it isn't anything close to science. The numbers that Mr Malty outputs are twice as big as what the yeast manufacturers say is optimal. It assumes that all ale strains require an equal pitch (they certainly do not). It was written years ago and hasn't been changed to reflect the new packaging of both wyeast and white labs. (wyeast packs used to be 25 billion cells but now they are 100 billion) Even the dry yeast has changed since then (nottingham didn't use to be vaccuum sealed). I still use it when repitching slurry but consider it the upper range of what is needed.

Not judging here, but I'm curious as to your logic.

You're stating here that because Mr Malty was written back when yeast packs used to be 25 billion cells and now they're 100 billion, that it's recommended final pitching rates are suspect?

For one, Mr Malty defaults to 100 billion cells, which suggests that it's been at least updated in that timeframe.

For two, regardless of what cell count you drop into a Starter, MrMalty is suggesting how many cells that Starter should finish with. The only thing that bigger vials/smack packs would impact here is the size of the starter to get to the suggested pitch rate.

What am I missing?
 
I think Mr Malty is a good guide but it isn't anything close to science. The numbers that Mr Malty outputs are twice as big as what the yeast manufacturers say is optimal. It assumes that all ale strains require an equal pitch (they certainly do not). It was written years ago and hasn't been changed to reflect the new packaging of both wyeast and white labs. (wyeast packs used to be 25 billion cells but now they are 100 billion) Even the dry yeast has changed since then (nottingham didn't use to be vaccuum sealed). I still use it when repitching slurry but consider it the upper range of what is needed.

I don't think this is true at all. The pitch rates in MrMalty are consistent to what's in Yeast (published 2014), by Chris White (from, White Labs) and Jamil Zainasheff (from, MrMalty)
 
I don't think this is true at all. The pitch rates in MrMalty are consistent to what's in Yeast (published 2014), by Chris White (from, White Labs) and Jamil Zainasheff (from, MrMalty)

It was published originally in 2010 actually - still a good point. 2010 just isn't all that dated...
 
It'd could have been written and printed yesterday, the point is its completely empirical. Precisely measuring the yeast density doesn't change the fact that the all he's saying is that fermenting at that yeast density with chico results in well attenuated, good tasting beer. because its wrapped in a book makes it somehow more scientific than anymans home brew test that says brewing at X cell density with Y yeast results in a well attenuated, good tasting beer?
 
I was simply addressing gbx's comment that MrMalty's output is twice as high as the yeast manufacturers' recommendations, considering Chris White wrote a book that validates it.
 
It'd could have been written and printed yesterday, the point is its completely empirical. Precisely measuring the yeast density doesn't change the fact that the all he's saying is that fermenting at that yeast density with chico results in well attenuated, good tasting beer. because its wrapped in a book makes it somehow more scientific than anymans home brew test that says brewing at X cell density with Y yeast results in a well attenuated, good tasting beer?


I dunno. If Chris White takes his life work with yeast and makes some conclusions and writes a book with certain conclusions and recommendations for optimal results, I'm probably going to give that a bit more credibility than someone posting their personal homebrewing results on here that could be the one youtube "how to brew beer redneck style" guy.


The Xbeeriments and the like are a fun in-between of those extremes.
 
and what's also cool about the exbeeriments being the in-between, is that the people commenting on this thread are also all over that extremity. from the person who says, "hell yeah man! i'm never doing a starter again!" (and yes that was meant to be interpreted as being said by the Murica! guy) To the guy who says, "egh-hum, excuse me sirs, this is one single data point, from one particular strain, in one particular beer, in one experiment of that beer. therefore this experiment proves nothing." (and yes that was meant to be interpreted as being said in an incredibly nerdy, pocket-protector wearing, guy who pushes his glasses up his nose during the egh-hum part.) somewhere in there i assume there's an in-between.

i, for one, thoroughly enjoy these experiments and wish more people were doing something like this. i'm going to begin experimenting with things soon, and am honestly jealous of the size of their tasting panels (even if it is too small for some people's likings). the guys doing these experiments, and the ones interpreting it as one of those in-betweeners, realizes that it's not the end of the discussion. but it is a pretty damn good start to the discussion, considering up to this point there's been no discussion, only that we're all told we must make a starter with liquid yeast, we must control our temperatures down to the .1F, we must siphon out the trub before fermentation, we must do this and that and so on.
These guys, and the ones with the balanced viewpoint, are simply looking for more precision, better turnaround time, easier brew days, etc. in order for this HOBBY to be more fun and to produce the best beer that we can. If that means that in an average sized beer that is semi-hop forward we can straight up just pitch one vial of yeast as long as we're in no hurry for it to get on with it, then now we can start doing more testing of that. if that means for a paler, slightly more malt forward beer i can just toss everything into the fermenter, then i'm gonna start doing it and testing for myself.

but then again, i've always been the type to question the status quo, whether that's religion, politics, "historical" education, or how to home brew beer.
 
I dunno. If Chris White takes his life work with yeast and makes some conclusions and writes a book with certain conclusions and recommendations for optimal results, I'm probably going to give that a bit more credibility than someone posting their personal homebrewing results on here that could be the one youtube "how to brew beer redneck style" guy.


The Xbeeriments and the like are a fun in-between of those extremes.

I'm not saying we shouldn't believe what Mr. white is saying. At the end of the day, there's no lab experiment to say that beer was brewed well or not; if you pitched an appropriate amount of yeast or not. the flavor and quality of a beer is a completely unscientific test. A masters in organic chemistry does not give you improved taste buds. Any amount of theory falls off the cliff when it can only be proven by someone's arbitrary taste buds.

What does Mr. White's purepitch yeast packets recommend for a pitching rate (1 pack for 5 gal under 1.070) What does the Yeast book/mrmalty.com say for 5 gal of 1.065??

i.e. pitching rates and appropriate yeast cell densities are a lot more liberal than what is regurgitated as gospel. The book and Mr. Malty are very conservative so that you can be sure you have enough yeast. That's all. They can't get more precise than that.
RDWHAHB.
 
Yeast spec sheets often list numbers that seem weird to homebrewers. For a single example, US-05 lists temperature ranges of 54F-77F, where most of us prefer not to use it anywhere outside of the 62-68 range, and just about any yeast spec sheet is going to be the same way. You can ferment anywhere in that range (and possibly even outside of it), but that doesn't mean your beer will be as good. I suspect recommended pitch rates are the same way - if the instructions read 1 vial per 5 gallons of 1.070 wort, it'll ferment your beer at that rate, but it might come out more like the 77 degree beer than the 64 degree beer. I've read one homebrew experiment where they pitched 1% (I think) of the recommended rate in a beer and it attenuated fully and produced a decent (but not great) beer. Yeast will ferment in a lot of conditions, but there's a lot of anecdote out there about what conditions led to the best beer. That's not to say don't challenge the status quo - much of today's status quo was heresy ten years ago - but the current line of reasoning on yeast pitch rates is based on a lot of experience and at least marginally-scientific experimentation, so there's certainly something to them, even if they're not the final answer.
 
Yeast spec sheets often list numbers that seem weird to homebrewers. For a single example, US-05 lists temperature ranges of 54F-77F, where most of us prefer not to use it anywhere outside of the 62-68 range, and just about any yeast spec sheet is going to be the same way. You can ferment anywhere in that range (and possibly even outside of it), but that doesn't mean your beer will be as good. I suspect recommended pitch rates are the same way - if the instructions read 1 vial per 5 gallons of 1.070 wort, it'll ferment your beer at that rate, but it might come out more like the 77 degree beer than the 64 degree beer. I've read one homebrew experiment where they pitched 1% (I think) of the recommended rate in a beer and it attenuated fully and produced a decent (but not great) beer. Yeast will ferment in a lot of conditions, but there's a lot of anecdote out there about what conditions led to the best beer. That's not to say don't challenge the status quo - much of today's status quo was heresy ten years ago - but the current line of reasoning on yeast pitch rates is based on a lot of experience and at least marginally-scientific experimentation, so there's certainly something to them, even if they're not the final answer.

i completely agree. who knows if we'll ever find the final answer? Maybe we'll come up with a good set of data sheets that say for this style of beer at this gravity you should do this with the trub, this with the hops, this with the yeast, this with the temps, etc. But then a future generation will come along and question all of that.

I also want to point out, I won't stop "overpitching" simply because of the fact that this experiment showed what all of us know pretty well, "proper" pitch rates into properly aerated wort will take away a significant chunk of that lag time. I want to get that turnaround time as short as I can get it.
 
Another thing that might be interesting to test - but would certainly take a considerably longer period, is another of White & Jamil's assertions: proper pitch rate/temp control/oxygenation, yeast will stand up better to repeated pitches. Not as big a deal for us as for pros who repitch all the time, but still; their assertion is that if any of those things are off, then it significantly reduces the number of repitches you can get out of a single pitch of yeast. If any one is significantly low, subsequent repitches can suffer from underattenuation and/or weird off flavors due to screwey ester profiles.
 
My initial thought was how I heard Chris White say WLP90 was developed as a strain that was idiot proof. I am more inclined to believe this wouldn't turn out the same with 002/1968 but maybe not. I do think the temp control is far more important.
 
Another thing that might be interesting to test - but would certainly take a considerably longer period, is another of White & Jamil's assertions: proper pitch rate/temp control/oxygenation, yeast will stand up better to repeated pitches. Not as big a deal for us as for pros who repitch all the time, but still; their assertion is that if any of those things are off, then it significantly reduces the number of repitches you can get out of a single pitch of yeast. If any one is significantly low, subsequent repitches can suffer from underattenuation and/or weird off flavors due to screwey ester profiles.

I've read that if you want to repitch it's better to underpitch to stimulate reproduction so you have a larger population of new cells.

The calculators for recipes and yeast propagation are only guidelines and estimations. In a commercial brewery they learn the behavior of their yeast very intimately, and you don't need a lab for that. They (usually) aren't using the whole catalog of yeast to brew dozens of widely different styles. The homebrewer has to do the same. You have to carefully observe and learn how a particular strain behaves in your brewery with your equipment and techniques. That's the only way to make great beer consistently.
 
I've read that if you want to repitch it's better to underpitch to stimulate reproduction so you have a larger population of new cells.

The calculators for recipes and yeast propagation are only guidelines and estimations. In a commercial brewery they learn the behavior of their yeast very intimately, and you don't need a lab for that...

And what I'm trying to get at above, is that Chris White (of White Labs) and Jamil Z state the exact opposite of both your statements in their book. Jamil's a pretty reliable authority on the homebrewing side, and White is absolutely a reliable authority on yeast in general. And according to the two, the health and appropriate size of your yeast pitch has a direct influence on the long term viability of your yeast, should you decide to repitch. And their text is littered with references to using yeast labs to ensure your yeast health and pitch count. They even dedicate an entire chapter to how to build your own yeast lab at home. If it weren't key to making better beer, they wouldn't have wasted so much of their time focusing on it.

I happen to agree with your statements regarding observing yeast in your brewery and getting familiar with how it performs - but you need a place to start from when beginning to experiment with your yeast, and what better place than with the experimental observations of two accepted experts?
 
And what I'm trying to get at above, is that Chris White (of White Labs) and Jamil Z state the exact opposite of both your statements in their book. Jamil's a pretty reliable authority on the homebrewing side, and White is absolutely a reliable authority on yeast in general. And according to the two, the health and appropriate size of your yeast pitch has a direct influence on the long term viability of your yeast, should you decide to repitch. And their text is littered with references to using yeast labs to ensure your yeast health and pitch count. They even dedicate an entire chapter to how to build your own yeast lab at home. If it weren't key to making better beer, they wouldn't have wasted so much of their time focusing on it.

I happen to agree with your statements regarding observing yeast in your brewery and getting familiar with how it performs - but you need a place to start from when beginning to experiment with your yeast, and what better place than with the experimental observations of two accepted experts?

What's the second statement? I'm trying to find the source but I think it was a legitimate one describing how to revitalize a culture for repitching when the parent cells' membranes are not at optimum health.

Brewing beer is a fairly forgiving process and it's not that easy to completely muck up a batch. If you're trying to make the best beer possible then it's important to understand pitching rate as a variable you can play with to get what you want.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top