Year old belgian yeast in a starter. Step up or not?

[Bisco_Ben]

So about 4 days ago I made a 1.8 liter yeast starter with some wyeast belgian stout yeast that was about 13 months old. It took until today to start visibly fermenting and it had been on the stir plate the whole time. Im glad to see that it finally started but I am curious if I should step this up before brewing or not. If it were anything other than belgian i definitely would, but i read slight under pitching is good. This beer will have an Og of roughly 1.078-1.080 and will be a 6 gallon batch. Any insight would be much appreciated!

 

[Bisco_Ben]

bump it up!

 

[Gameface]

I would step it for sure

Sent from my SPH-M840 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[Biergarden]

Make a DME wort to 1.080 and add that old yeast to it. It might take a while for it to show any activity; maybe even a few days.

 

[CA_Mouse]

I've found for Belgian yeast strains, under pitching gives you more of the banana characteristics and over pitching will give you more of the clove characteristics. Depending on what my grain bill has in it, will determine if I want a specific flavor profile. I do a Belgian Golden with Rye that I have done both ways and prefer slightly under pitching, as the banana and rye play nicely together.

 

[CA_Mouse]

Make a DME wort to 1.080 and add that old yeast to it. It might take a while for it to show any activity; maybe even a few days.

I would never make a starter with this high of a gravity! That would stress the yeast out before they start working on your beer. A starter really should be between 1.020 and 1.040 because you just want them to multiply, not start producing alcohol.

 

[Biergarden]

I would never make a starter with this high of a gravity! That would stress the yeast out before they start working on your beer. A starter really should be between 1.020 and 1.040 because you just want them to multiply, not start producing alcohol.

If you're going to make a beer with an OG of 1.080 like he is, then yes, you're starter has to make the OG of that beer. Otherwise the yeast will have to adjust in the wort, which will stall the fermentation process.
However, you maybe right in thinking to do it slowly if it's old yeast. But in the end the OG should really match the maximize your yeasts performance.

 

[Poobah58]

If you're going to make a beer with an OG of 1.080 like he is, then yes, you're starter has to make the OG of that beer. Otherwise the yeast will have to adjust in the wort, which will stall the fermentation process.
However, you maybe right in thinking to do it slowly if it's old yeast. But in the end the OG should really match the maximize your yeasts performance.

Where on earth did you come up with this concept?

 

[Biergarden]

Where on earth did you come up with this concept?

Its not a new concept. Its standard practice to pitch enough yeast into the beer you are going to ferment. Please look up pitching rates online. There you will even find pitching rate calculators. I think there is a free on at brewcalc.com or something like that. You will also learn about that if you attend a formal brewing school. I did mine in Munich at a school called Domans.

 

[kh54s10]

Make a DME wort to 1.080 and add that old yeast to it. It might take a while for it to show any activity; maybe even a few days.

If you're going to make a beer with an OG of 1.080 like he is, then yes, you're starter has to make the OG of that beer. Otherwise the yeast will have to adjust in the wort, which will stall the fermentation process.
However, you maybe right in thinking to do it slowly if it's old yeast. But in the end the OG should really match the maximize your yeasts performance.

Where on earth did you come up with this concept?

Its not a new concept. Its standard practice to pitch enough yeast into the beer you are going to ferment. Please look up pitching rates online. There you will even find pitching rate calculators. I think there is a free on at brewcalc.com or something like that. You will also learn about that if you attend a formal brewing school. I did mine in Munich at a school called Domans.

I second Poobah58.

I am relatively new (2 1/4 years) but I have read a lot on making starters. This is the FIRST time I have ever read of this concept.

Everything I have read is to take it easy on the yeast and let them reproduce, and not stress them out with a high gravity starter.

Almost all the numbers I have seen ask for a starter wort at about 1.030 -1.040. Above this stresses the yeast and makes them less effective than ones prepared at 1.030 -1.040.

I don't know about Domans or when they did their research... After all it was not too long ago that everone was freaked out about autolysis! Ideas change with better/newer information. Maybe they have new information but it goes against what is current.

 

[Biergarden]

There have been things wrong and learned from them along the way. Pitching rates are an important topic and vital to a rapid fermentation. It is why I suggested look at one of the online pitching rate calculators.

 

[Gameface]

There have been things wrong and learned from them along the way. Pitching rates are an important topic and vital to a rapid fermentation. It is why I suggested look at one of the online pitching rate calculators.

So, the standard advice around these parts would be that if you need to get your cell count up to a proper pitching rate it is better to do a stepped starter, both at around 1.030-1.040 to get to the correct cell count than it is to do a single large starter and especially better than doing a large high gravity starter. You seem to think you have info that contradicts this line of thinking. I'd be interested to hear specifics on your approach.

If your response is going to be to insult my brewing knowledge or provide fluff about your credentials you can save it. I'm interested in the specifics of why a high gravity starter (matching the gravity of the beer to be made) is better.

 

[Biergarden]

So, the standard advice around these parts would be that if you need to get your cell count up to a proper pitching rate it is better to do a stepped starter, both at around 1.030-1.040 to get to the correct cell count than it is to do a single large starter and especially better than doing a large high gravity starter. You seem to think you have info that contradicts this line of thinking. I'd be interested to hear specifics on your approach.

If your response is going to be to insult my brewing knowledge or provide fluff about your credentials you can save it. I'm interested in the specifics of why a high gravity starter (matching the gravity of the beer to be made) is better.

I'm not trying to insult you, and I'm not sure where you got that from. Insults aren't worth my time or bandwidth for a person I don't know.
For me and my practice, I make a yeast starter that will match the OG of the beer I'm trying to make. Without the scientific charts and graphs, the bottom line is, for me, to get the yeast ready for their job by making a starter to match the job (environment) they are being asked to work in.
Some people are confounded by the idea, for example and not directed at you, of making a starters to match their brewing environment. If you're going to make a beer with a starting OG of 1.080, then it's very sensible to create the starter within those same perimeters. The cell count has to be up to the task, or a brewer is under pitching. Granted the only way to be 100% certain of your cell count is to buy a hemacytometer and microscope, learn how to use both, or follow common brewing sense.
I'm not interested in insulting anyone here. I have friends for that, but I would like to spread a little of my knowledge for those who are interested.

 

[Gameface]

I'm not trying to insult you, and I'm not sure where you got that from. Insults aren't worth my time or bandwidth for a person I don't know.
For me and my practice, I make a yeast starter that will match the OG of the beer I'm trying to make. Without the scientific charts and graphs, the bottom line is, for me, to get the yeast ready for their job by making a starter to match the job (environment) they are being asked to work in.
Some people are confounded by the idea, for example and not directed at you, of making a starters to match their brewing environment. If you're going to make a beer with a starting OG of 1.080, then it's very sensible to create the starter within those same perimeters. The cell count has to be up to the task, or a brewer is under pitching. Granted the only way to be 100% certain of your cell count is to buy a hemacytometer and microscope, learn how to use both, or follow common brewing sense.
I'm not interested in insulting anyone here. I have friends for that, but I would like to spread a little of my knowledge for those who are interested.

But what about the common notion here that you aren't trying to encourage the yeast to go into alcohol production mode, you just want them to multiply to reach adequate pitching numbers. And that you get considerably more bang for your buck as far as numbers are concerned making stepped starters with gravities around 1.040.

As I understand it this is well traveled territory with a lot of respected experts having weighed in.

Intuitively I get the idea of matching the environment the yeast will be pitched into, but I'm pretty well convinced by the discussions I've read that it's better to give them a low stress environment to multiply to adequate numbers than to basically put them into a stressful environment in order to prepare them to live in a stressful environment.

mrmalty.com can tell you about how many yeast you'll get from a variety of starter regimes. I use beersmith's starter tab to figure out volumes for mine. I've gone to making a smaller starter first followed by a slightly larger starter for my 10G batches. I used to just make a 4L starter and call it good. That worked just fine but I've been convinced by what I've read on HBT to follow a better method.

 

[Biergarden]

But what about the common notion here that you aren't trying to encourage the yeast to go into alcohol production mode, you just want them to multiply to reach adequate pitching numbers. And that you get considerably more bang for your buck as far as numbers are concerned making stepped starters with gravities around 1.040.

As I understand it this is well traveled territory with a lot of respected experts having weighed in.

Intuitively I get the idea of matching the environment the yeast will be pitched into, but I'm pretty well convinced by the discussions I've read that it's better to give them a low stress environment to multiply to adequate numbers than to basically put them into a stressful environment in order to prepare them to live in a stressful environment.

mrmalty.com can tell you about how many yeast you'll get from a variety of starter regimes. I use beersmith's starter tab to figure out volumes for mine. I've gone to making a smaller starter first followed by a slightly larger starter for my 10G batches. I used to just make a 4L starter and call it good. That worked just fine but I've been convinced by what I've read on HBT to follow a better method.

If you're happy with your practice and to you your beer tastes good, then you're doing an adequate job. But without a hemacytometer you're not going to have an exact cell count for your beer and each beer will be different depending on the OG.
If you send your yeast into a wort that has a higher OG than your starter and feel your results are good, then maybe they are for you. But for me that wort will be under pitched and the yeast will have to work harder to complete fermentation since it is in a different environment.
Incidentally, the yeast starter, for me, is pitched when at high krausen. It should take no more than a day to reach that point, afterwards the wort should be fermenting within 8 hours or less after being pitched.

 

[Gameface]

If you're happy with your practice and to you your beer tastes good, then you're doing an adequate job. But without a hemacytometer you're not going to have an exact cell count for your beer and each beer will be different depending on the OG.
If you send your yeast into a wort that has a higher OG than your starter and feel your results are good, then maybe they are for you. But for me that wort will be under pitched and the yeast will have to work harder to complete fermentation since it is in a different environment.
Incidentally, the yeast starter, for me, is pitched when at high krausen. It should take no more than a day to reach that point, afterwards the wort should be fermenting within 8 hours or less after being pitched.

Certainly the number of yeast I pitch is an estimate of an estimate. But these estimates are based on a large amount of experience and lab analysis. My understanding is that most of the estimates err on the low side. In addition to that I typically aim high. The online calculators and the software I use tells me how many yeast I should pitch and also how many yeast I should expect with a given sized starter. I use a stir plate. I don't think you can say that I'm underpitching just because my starter gravity is around 1.040. I can visually see the increase in yeast from my first starter to my second (I make a 1.5-2L starter first and follow that with a 3.5-4L second starter, typically).

What I'm asking you is what is incorrect about the overwhelming consensus in the homebrewing and professional brewing community to make low gravity starters?

 

[livetaswim06]

There is a great video with Owen Lingley of Wyeast talking about yeast starters. 1.040 is the best starter and 1.080 will stress the yeast out too much.

 

[pvault98]

I completely agree on making starters in the 1.030-1.040 range. After reading the entirety of the Yeast book by Jamil and Chris White (owner of white labs yeast) this is the point the beat to death. The lower gravity range allows for the most growth while providing the healthiest yeast possible so that when you pitch into a high gravity beer you have an appropriate count of healthy cells which will then grow again in the new wort. If your starter is made with high gravity wort, the yeast grown in this environment will not be as healthy and are more likely to have mutations. This is not the type of yeast you want to pitch and grow in your final wort that you will ferment.

 

[cwhouston]

If you're happy with your practice and to you your beer tastes good, then you're doing an adequate job. But without a hemacytometer you're not going to have an exact cell count for your beer and each beer will be different depending on the OG.
If you send your yeast into a wort that has a higher OG than your starter and feel your results are good, then maybe they are for you. But for me that wort will be under pitched and the yeast will have to work harder to complete fermentation since it is in a different environment.
Incidentally, the yeast starter, for me, is pitched when at high krausen. It should take no more than a day to reach that point, afterwards the wort should be fermenting within 8 hours or less after being pitched.

You appear to be confusing yeast 'acclimatisation' with cell count. Expert advice is to pitch the correct amount of healthy cells, i.e. not underpitch. Healthy cells are obtained from a sufficient volume of starter culture with OG around 1.040.

Yeast do not learn to cope with high gravities and love it, high gravity worts bugger their health (the irony). Better to start your beer with fresh recruits.

 

[beernbourbon]

I am really fairly new to this love of brewing, only been doing for about 18 months, but I think I'm seeing the issue/confusion/argument here. Looks like both 'sides' so to speak, are kinda saying the same thing. I get where Biergarden is coming from....pitching at the higher gravity so as to match with the OG. Others are saying 04 is best for yeast..... so, if you simply START at 04, and 'step up' to 08 prior to pitching, thereby increasing cell count (in its estimated state of course).....would that not satisfy both sides of the argument? I still consider myself quite the noob, so I may be missing something entirely here. Just a thought.

 

[livetaswim06]

I would disagree about starting at 1.04 and then moving it to 1.08 or anything higher than 1.04 really. Based on what the guy from Wyeast said, the high gravity starter will actually just stress the yeast a bunch and it will be worse.

Applying the high gravity starter logic would be like saying someone should sit in the cold before going outside so it's not a shock or sit in a sauna before going out in the heat. It's best to be comfortable and relaxed, just like yeast would be in a 1.04 starter.

 

[IL1kebeer]

If you're going to make a beer with an OG of 1.080 like he is, then yes, you're starter has to make the OG of that beer. Otherwise the yeast will have to adjust in the wort, which will stall the fermentation process.

However, you maybe right in thinking to do it slowly if it's old yeast. But in the end the OG should really match the maximize your yeasts performance.

I'd have to say false. You can, and should, keep starters at around 1.040 regardless of the OG of the wort you are pitching it into. The only reason to change your starter OG is if you are working with an old culture and you are trying to grow something up, and in this case you would go for a lower OG.

Real life example: I threw my 1.038 starter into my 1.081 wort and the fermentation process did not "stall". It actually took off in about 8 hours and was a quite healthy fermentation. That beer went on to win a silver medal in a recent competition. I had a 1.072 wort with a 1.038 starter and still conducted a healthy fermentation. That beer went on to win a gold.

Not sure where you are getting your information that pitching a low OG starter to a high OG wort will stall the fermentation process. If you have any credible articles or references to any books please post so that I can check them out and maybe learn something new. I'm sure that no one here is going to go to Munich to take that course, so a solid tangible reference would be appropriate if you want people to buy into this notion. Otherwise, you are going against common knowledge, as well as credible research, without your own sources for us to check out.

 

[CA_Mouse]

Biergarden has some very incorrect information.

In 'Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation' by Chris White with Jamil Zainasheff, Part Five Yeast Growth, Handling & Storage, page 133

"When making starter wort, you want to balance yeast health, yeast growth, and convienience. Starters made at too low a gravity result in minimal growth.~~~ You also do not want to make a high-gravity starter to grow yeast. The higher the gravity, the more pressure it puts on the yeast. Brewers should not believe the myth that yeast become acclimated to high-gravity fermentation from a high-gravity starter. "

I bet my beer on Microbiologist and CEO of White Labs.

 

[Biergarden]

Biergarden has some very incorrect information.

In 'Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation' by Chris White with Jamil Zainasheff, Part Five Yeast Growth, Handling & Storage, page 133

"When making starter wort, you want to balance yeast health, yeast growth, and convienience. Starters made at too low a gravity result in minimal growth.~~~ You also do not want to make a high-gravity starter to grow yeast. The higher the gravity, the more pressure it puts on the yeast. Brewers should not believe the myth that yeast become acclimated to high-gravity fermentation from a high-gravity starter. "

I bet my beer on Microbiologist and CEO of White Labs.

My method works for me just fine and has for many years. But thanks for taking some time to comment.