Whats up with the three tier system?

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theowlman16

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Looking to jump from partial mash to all grain. I don't really understand the need to have a 3 level system. Can't I just heat and pour the strike/sparge water into the mash tun? I see some rigs going 8 feet in the air...seems a bit of overkill.
 
I have a 3 tier. It makes things simple if you do it right. My HLT is on the top level on a turkey fryer burner. I have it plumbed so adding water to it is just opening a valve. After it is heated I open the valve and gravity fills the mash tun. After the mash it is drained into the boil kettle which is also on a burner. Sparge water is added from the HLT, stirred and drained into the BK. Gravity again. Do the boil and then drain into the fermenter. No lifting of hot water, no pumps, easy peasy.

I started by putting my bucket and Better Bottle on the floor. I made a platform for the BK and burner so it would drain into the fermenter. I then did the same so the mash tun would drain into the BK then the same to determine the height of the HLT.

If you don't want the height you will need a pump or two at $110 + each......... Or scooping hot water from one vessel to another and risking scalding burns.......
 
If you are starting from scratch I would go biab.

As for your original question a 3 tier system allows gravity to work in your favor moving your liquids.
 
I built 2 tier because I didn't like having 170 degree water 6 feet off the ground. I need to lift my boil kettle off the ground and up on the burner but lifting 5 or 10 gallons of wort 15" really isn't that difficult and it's not really hot at that point.

I haven't done BIAB, I'm interested in trying, but I'm really not seeing how it's any easier and I'd need to build a contraption to lift the grains out.
 
I do BIAB. I use a step ladder over the pot with a pully for the grain bag. For high gravity I have a 2 tier set up. I use a small 12 volt food grade Chinese pump to move the hot water up to the mash tun. It won't work for wort full of grain and hops solids. It's too light duty for that. Don't want to clean it all the time either so I just batch sparge and use gravity from there. The little pump saves me from hot water above my head!
 
If you have the extra money the one vessel systems like a grainfather, brewboss, or braumeister are really good in my opinion.

I have a grainfather which i love. The other 2 are probably even better in many respects but there considerably more expensive.

BIAB is the cheapest way to go of course. I done it a few times, works fine. Takes more tweaking i would imagine but many die hard BIAB folks. It was the way i was going to go but i wanted an electric system to use inside and the grainfather comes with a very nice chiller and a decent temperature controller has well.

You can get custom made BIAB bags here off this site to fit in a cube cooler for instance. Or your boiler/pot.

That all said i agree the 3 tier system is a little over the top. It basically turned me off from all grain brewing for a few years until i started seeing BIAB and single electric vessel systems.
 
3 tier is to be able to use gravity for everything. Single tier if you use pump(s).

3 vessel systems typically have higher efficiency.

I went from 3 vessel single tier LP to BIAB electric. I am willing to sacrifice some efficiency for simplicity. Cost really isn't a factor you can spend more either way. All in I was probably at about $3K with my last system and that was with 20+ cornies and 2 kegerators.

I'm at $6K + on my BIAB and thats with 8 Sankey kegs and the milk cooler to carb and serve from. But I also went from 10 gallons to 1 bbl.

Its really all about how you want to go about it.
 
Thanks guys! I love that this forum has a lot of traffic/activity. I plan to stay on the cheap (I have three kids and one income). I'll probably go two tier to begin. Building a permanant "tower" for the liquor vessel seems a bit extreme, I will just fill the mash tun by hand. BIAB seems less manly to me. Like my grandma would probably go that route if she was a brewer. (I will probly piss someone off there).
 
I get by for now with two aluminum pots, Rubbermaid cooler and one burner. It does require a bit of lifting which my back is getting tired of between work and brewing on weekends so I'll be upgrading soon!

IMG_3763.jpg
 
I brewed for years on my stovetop with a 30 quart pot, and a 10 gallon cooler and it made great beer.

The thing is, lifting all that water and pouring scalding water into vessels got old for me. I first went two tier with one pump, but then found that going single tier with two pumps worked best for me. I never lift water, as it goes directly into the HLT where it is held and heated, and them pumped into the MLT. I never lift hot wort, as it's pumped into the boil kettle, and I never lift cold wort as it's chilled and pumped into the fermenter.

Overkill? Maybe. But I"m a 52 year old 135 pound weakling- without the pumps I would have quit long ago. It's also less work for me, since everything is all set up all the time- no hauling/moving/lifting equipment. The vessels are all decommissioned kegs- they weigh about 30 lbs even empty and there are three of them. The chiller is light, but yet another thing to haul around. In my case, everything always remains on the stand, and the stand has wheels if I want to move it. I also have it set up with all-electric, so I brew indoors in my laundry room. It's so convenient for me- no pulleys, no mess, no lifting.

The other thing to mention is that I"ve been burned quite a number of times by pouring hot liquids, and did injure my back once with all the lifting and transferring.

Of course, I've also been scalding by a loose hose on the single tier also, when it shot off and shot hot water at my chest. So there is always a risk of injury when dealing with hot liquids, electricity, and/or propane. I just feel that it's easier for me with my system and less "work".
 
Thanks guys! I love that this forum has a lot of traffic/activity. I plan to stay on the cheap (I have three kids and one income). I'll probably go two tier to begin. Building a permanant "tower" for the liquor vessel seems a bit extreme, I will just fill the mash tun by hand. BIAB seems less manly to me. Like my grandma would probably go that route if she was a brewer. (I will probly piss someone off there).

It's ok I have all my medals to comfort me...

Seriously though it's probably more manly as you have the opportunity to host a giant bag of 150° grains and squeeze the hell out of them. It is also more time friendly in my experience which may matter with kids. I can be done with a batch in the time it takes to watch the jags play on Sunday.

I did biab as a gap filler between a 3 tier system and building my single tier Eherms system. I love my Eherms system but if I had it to do all over with I likely would have stayed with biab.
 
It's ok I have all my medals to comfort me...

Seriously though it's probably more manly as you have the opportunity to host a giant bag of 150° grains and squeeze the hell out of them. It is also more time friendly in my experience which may matter with kids. I can be done with a batch in the time it takes to watch the jags play on Sunday.

I did biab as a gap filler between a 3 tier system and building my single tier Eherms system. I love my Eherms system but if I had it to do all over with I likely would have stayed with biab.

I think that is a huge issue. If you're brewing 3 gallon batches, sure BIAB is ok for most people- but this grandma could never rig up a pulley and system to deal with 27 pounds of wet grain (which weighs twice that when coming out of the mash tun) in a 30 pound vessel.

I'm definitely not manly enough to do large batches of BIAB.

Two pumps and a tippy dump are THIS grandma's way of dealing with 11 gallon sized batches! :mug:

Although, I do have my one grandson help out when he's not in school- he measures the hops in ounces, and my water additions in grams. He's such a good boy!
 
Thanks guys! I love that this forum has a lot of traffic/activity. I plan to stay on the cheap (I have three kids and one income). I'll probably go two tier to begin. Building a permanant "tower" for the liquor vessel seems a bit extreme, I will just fill the mash tun by hand. BIAB seems less manly to me. Like my grandma would probably go that route if she was a brewer. (I will probly piss someone off there).

Well Yooper beat me to it. I was going to say I'm beyond caring what people who've never done it think about BIAB, but don't be knocking us grandmas! :D

I have a 10 gal single tier system with 2 pumps, and there is no way I would ever want to transfer large amounts of liquid by hand. Try it a few times, you'll see if it's something you can live with. These days 80% of my batches are 3 gal stovetop BIAB - love the simplicity and more variety in the keezer. The bottom line is do what makes sense to you.
 
If you can lift the weight, just using the stand your burner came on, if you have a turkey fryer burner, works great. Heat your strike water, siphon or drain via ball valve to the mash tun on the ground. Set that on a table or something sturdy- I used a 3' long step stool for years- and drain to your boil kettle. Repeat for the sparge. It's a bit of a pain and requires three vessels but has the same net effect as a tiered system. It's also expandable as you desire. Add a pump, save some lifting. Add another burner and stand, no more juggling two heat able vessels. Then roll all that into a single tier if you want. Kyle
 
Three tier setups are the most economical way to brew without ever lifting anything heavy and/or hot. That explains their popularity. Each pump one adds eliminates one tier but adds cost. I went from three tier to single tier after adding a recirculation pump (may as well get maximum utility from the pump once you have it, and may as well use two pumps if you are going to use one). It is even more convenient that the original system.
 
IMO, if you are going to brew BIAB in 5 gallon batches or bigger you need a hoist, so you are not really saving a huge amount on space required.

I keep hearing that it saves a lot of time?? I wonder where? You have to heat the strike water (the same) you have to do a mash (the same) you have to do the boil (the same) I have to rinse out my mash tun (5 minutes while the boil is going) you have to cool the wort (the same) you have to wash the BK (the same)....

Where is the time saving????

My 3 tier is on my brewing porch always in place. I have water to the top so the only time I have to lift liquid is to take the full fermenter into the house.
 
If you rig up a simple hoist theres no lifting at all with BIAB. Crank up the bag,it will cool as it drains. Lower it down in a bucket..Couldnt be any more safe and easy
 
My HLT is a keggle so without a pump gravity is the only way to fill the MLT.
Like kh54s10 I started with my fermenter on ground and designed it from the fermentor on up to the HLT. It's a bit tall but very stable(I sat on the top shelf).
 
I brew smaller (5 gallon) batches in a single vessel rig. I do save time but primarily because I fly sparge on the 3V system. If I didn't fly sparge the time would be similar.

Yes, with fly sparging.. I think that segment of brewers is getting smaller and smaller.

I personally hate BIAB brewing, mostly because I am not set up for it. Maybe if I had a hoist, or a basket system.... But bags suck in 5 gallon size. Even 4 which is the biggest I have done on my stove.
 
I considered a 3 tier when I was acquiring parts to put a stand together. At the time I was using a double shelf thing I put together to use as a 3 tier for gravity use. I like the 3 tier, just wanted something a bit more user friendly. By the time I was ready to buy metal and start welding I went with a single tier. I had/have some back/neck issues prior to my final decision and thinking of the future I didn't want to lift ANYTHING when/if my back or neck were hurting.

Many years later... I'm so glad I thought it out before I started welding.

It's what works for you.
 
Thanks guys! I love that this forum has a lot of traffic/activity. I plan to stay on the cheap (I have three kids and one income). I'll probably go two tier to begin. Building a permanant "tower" for the liquor vessel seems a bit extreme, I will just fill the mash tun by hand. BIAB seems less manly to me. Like my grandma would probably go that route if she was a brewer. (I will probly piss someone off there).

Ha! Nope, not ticked off here. I was 1 vessel (like you didn't see need for more than that) with a cooler MLT (it held temps nicely). Then I went to the GF, after deciding to not go a further buildout. Now, I would say BIAB (or system such as GF) is not less manly, rather simple. And, if you do want to watch $$, go over the GF thread, there was just a post about a new all in one system that is similar to GF (w/o recirc pump & chiller) for just $300 coming out in Jan. I'd seriously look at that if you're on a budget, plus you could have manly fun with mods! Win-win :)
 
I've done 5 gallon BIAB without the hoist and lifting the bag by yourself sucks for a 1.050 beer much less a 1.090 beer! I don't consider it less manley (not mad) but maybe a simplistic way of doing things and a stepingstone. It made the transition to all grain cheaper and easier for me on a limited budget. Now I only use it for small beers and a time saver. It definitely still has it's place. And it has also made some very tasty beer! That said, it is more fun with more equipment, toys, options and less manual labor. My wife could use my system now but wouldn't ever make it hoisting the grain bag!
 
My reason for going back to a single level system is safety. I have done the 3 tier, the BIAB, and the single tier 3 vessel and I am going back to that for safety reasons. I was burned pretty badly helping a person brew on equipment that was not set up correctly for what he was trying to do and the medical bills would have easily added up to more than the cost of a good single tier system. I should have gone to the emergency room for the burns but didn't and will have the scar on my chest to remind me not to be stubborn (and stupid). Build your system with safety in mind. 170 degree water causes 2nd degree burns on contact. Boiling wort will cause much worse burns as it is sticky and 30 degrees hotter. Let the pumps move the hot liquids and make sure to use clamps on the hoses.

Mark
 
So 2 hours? Don't Jag fans stop watching at halftime?

:mug:

well played! Im a patriots fan by birth jags fan by transplant. Im a sucker for a lovable loser. Watching the jags to the end is a big part of the fun, you can't make up the stuff they do to lose games...
 
well played! Im a patriots fan by birth jags fan by transplant. Im a sucker for a lovable loser. Watching the jags to the end is a big part of the fun, you can't make up the stuff they do to lose games...

The mid 80s to mid 90s Buccaneers have the magical losing stuff to beat the Jags by miles!!
 
I initially was all gung-ho to build a 3 tier thing, but after I got a few batches in I really started to question the value. Eventually, it started looking like its primary benefit was the opportunity to take pictures of it and post them on the internet.

I totally get the "moving heavy liquids" problem, but I routinely do 10gal batches with no structure or pumps and the heaviest lifting I do all day is to move the beer-filled buckets to my fermentation chamber.
 
2 tier works great. You can always add a pump down the road and double up on the lower level so you don't need to lift your boil kettle.
 
For me, it's about space. A 3-tier would be great, but the house we're in ATM is so small the only way it'd happen would be to move the wife out (don't even get me started). SO, my brewing gear (along with just about everything else around here) has to be compact and easily stored. SO, 5 gallon BIAB it is.

I have fond memories of my previous place and its FOUR car garage. Misty water-colored memories...
 
3 tier, only water I lift is fill the HLT and once I build an RO system onto the stand I will run a fill hose up to the top kettle! Compact, it is 5' long and 2' wide. Top of the HLT is about 6 1/2 feet. I do 11 gallon batches and BIAB would get way to heavy for me to deal with. Simple, everything is gravity feed including filling the fermenters so all I lift is the 2 fermenting buckets that go in my pantry this time of year(it is 63f degrees back there).

IMG_20160604_1715208131_zpsfuspvymt.jpg
 
well played! Im a patriots fan by birth jags fan by transplant. Im a sucker for a lovable loser. Watching the jags to the end is a big part of the fun, you can't make up the stuff they do to lose games...

I understand, been a Raiders fan since the late '70s. Have not had a winning season from 2002 to last year. 'Bout time to see a change.

To answer the OP, I've had a 3 tier since I started AG. I just built two tables out of scrap wood for the HLT and MT. the boil is on the floor with a riser to fill the fermenter. I made them so they fit inside of each other for storage. Works great for me.....work smarter, not harder.
 
You don't need a fancy rig to brew beer. Sure, some things are nice to have, but if you are on a tight budget you don't really need much.
Simple directions using Batch Sparge method, One Kettle, One Cooler (I add BIAB Bag to cooler) and one bucket:
--Heat the water on your kitchen stove in your brew kettle.
--Dump the hot water in your cooler, add the grain, stir, put lid on and forget about it for an hour.
--Heat sparge water in your kettle on the stove.
--When mashing is done, drain wort into bucket.
--Add Sparge water to cooler.
--Pour wort from bucket to brew kettle and start heating on stove or outside burner if you have one.
--Drain sparge from cooler to bucket and add to brew kettle.
The above method and "system" has limitations, but its cheap and works just fine. If you are boiling on the stove, you may have to limit batch size to 4 gallons or less, depending what your stove can boil. But 4 gallons of homebrew is better than none, so just go with it.
You can add extra steps like fly sparging, step mashing, decoction, some re-circulation by hand and other things if you want, or just keep it simple.
If you already have a kettle, all you need to add is a cooler, a valve, a BIAB bag and a bucket.
 
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