What temp and duration do you hopstand?

[rodwha]

I wonder how much hopstand affects the bitterness of hops added when boil and whether it affects it at all?
If No Chill affects as 20 minutes boil then the hopstand is likely to change the bitterness of hops added when boil.

They say a hop stand does add a little bitterness. I’ve seen it said it’s as low as 10% and as high as 25%, and the temperature seems to make an impact on that as well with some people doing it hotter and some doing it cooler.

What I see is that late boil and hop stand additions don’t taste anything like what the IBU number shows. Once I tried a no bittering IPA using equal amounts and 30, 20, 10, and 5 mins, and though it was very hop flavorful it was weird to me as I felt it was missing that bitterness.

Now I use 1/4 to 1/2 ounce of a high AA hop for bittering. If I can get at least 10-12 IBUs from a bittering addition I’m happy.

 

[bleme]

A bit of an aside, but not really off topic per se, but how does a hopstand/whirlpool work in regards to IBUs? I’ve seen prior that it was said it’s roughly 1/4 the IBUs with all of the flavor, but my calculator figures 10%, which is adjustable but the setting.

The Beersmith calculator seems to come pretty close. I've done 2 beers with no hops in the boil at all. I pitched about 8oz at 170-180F and used the Beersmith calculator to figure how long to stand. Both beers fit my expectations.

 

[Ninoid]

This is OK for hop added after flame out.
But I wonder if the bitterness changes if we only have boil hops (60 min, 15 min, 5 min, ...) with or without standing 20 or 30 minutes after flameout?

 

[bleme]

This is OK for hop added after flame out.
But I wonder if the bitterness changes if we only have boil hops (60 min, 15 min, 5 min, ...) with or without standing 20 or 30 minutes after flameout?

My version of Beersmith doesn't handle the mix of hopstand hops with 15/5/flameout additions well, which is one reason why I went with hopstand-only hops. I don't know if they fixed this in Version 3 or not.

 

[day_trippr]

BS3 greatly improved how it handles post-boil hop additions and provides lots of user control over it...

Cheers!

 

[Ninoid]

According to some research and recommendations, No Chill counts as 20 min of boil (60 min boil hop is as 80 min). Do any have estimation how flame out high temperature waiting affects IBU?

 

[ncbrewer]

I wonder how much hopstand affects the bitterness of hops added when boil and whether it affects it at all?
If No Chill affects as 20 minutes boil then the hopstand is likely to change the bitterness of hops added when boil.

This gives lots of information about the bitterness added:
https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.com/2016/03/06/an-analysis-of-sub-boiling-hop-utilization/

 

[HTH1975]

This gives lots of information about the bitterness added:
https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.com/2016/03/06/an-analysis-of-sub-boiling-hop-utilization/

Very interesting that there is not as much of a difference as we normally assume with boiling wort versus 70-80C.

 

[pwessinger]

I remain unconvinced temperature matters that much. Certainly dont want to boil them. Brulosophy has tested this twice once fo vs 170 and once fo vs 120. Both were unreliably distinguishable. Hey, what would you expect from me. Makes sense seeing as no matter their start, the hops end up sitting in the beer until completion.

After reading that article I decided to switch my huge NEIPA whirlpool (which I have brewed many times) from 170 to FO. The first time I performed a FO addition, the beer came out INSANELY too bitter. Repeated the same recipe a month later and dropped it to 140 before dumping in the hops and the beer came out perfect. I will be whirlpooling below 150 from here on out, regardless of brulosophy's results .

 

[Ninoid]

This gives lots of information about the bitterness added:
https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.com/2016/03/06/an-analysis-of-sub-boiling-hop-utilization/

Using this analysis most accurate can be calculated IBU with different temperature stage (strong or weak boil, hopstand).

Update:
By that analysis, hop added at start of boil will during the hopstand add another 25% bitterness of boil on 100'C. However, this is probably only true for a hop that has not been boiled for more than 30 minutes because it fired most of its possible bitterness.

 

[applescrap]

After reading that article I decided to switch my huge NEIPA whirlpool (which I have brewed many times) from 170 to FO. The first time I performed a FO addition, the beer came out INSANELY too bitter. Repeated the same recipe a month later and dropped it to 140 before dumping in the hops and the beer came out perfect. I will be whirlpooling below 150 from here on out, regardless of brulosophy's results .

How long did you let them sit? The brulosophy work is always great food for thought. In this case it makes sense that leaving hops in boiling temp water for extended time would create isomerization and bitterness. Once 6 to 8 oz of hops are added I find it hard to believe any lower temperature nuisance is going to matter that much in the long run. If I was going to make a neipa I would just add them at fo and chill right away. I chill in about ten minutes. The nuances between 140, or 150 or 120 etc...I remain unconvinced matters. Then another 4 to 6 dry hop. It seems likely nuances are diminished in the sheer bulk of it all. Keeping them in for extended time at high temperatures makes sense that more isomerization is likely. To me the idea is to not boil them so fo whirlpool would be out, other than adding them at fo and chilling quickly.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

How long did you let them sit? The brulosophy work is always great food for thought. In this case it makes sense that leaving hops in boiling temp water for extended time would create isomerization and bitterness. Once 6 to 8 oz of hops are added I find it hard to believe any lower temperature nuisance is going to matter that much in the long run. If I was going to make a neipa I would just add them at fo and chill right away. I chill in about ten minutes. The nuances between 140, or 150 or 120 etc...I remain unconvinced matters. Then another 4 to 6 dry hop. It seems likely nuances are diminished in the sheer bulk of it all. Keeping them in for extended time at high temperatures makes sense that more isomerization is likely. To me the idea is to not boil them so fo whirlpool would be out, other than adding them at fo and chilling quickly.

Hops boil off there oils at different temps. Hops used in IPA's like cascade Citra ETC boil off at 160. Theres a name for the particular oil thats slipping me right now. THe the idea is to do a hop stand to below those temps to maximize the hop flavor. Anything over those temp and your boiling away the goodness of the hops....at least that I how read it.

 

[pwessinger]

How long did you let them sit? The brulosophy work is always great food for thought. In this case it makes sense that leaving hops in boiling temp water for extended time would create isomerization and bitterness. Once 6 to 8 oz of hops are added I find it hard to believe any lower temperature nuisance is going to matter that much in the long run. If I was going to make a neipa I would just add them at fo and chill right away. I chill in about ten minutes. The nuances between 140, or 150 or 120 etc...I remain unconvinced matters. Then another 4 to 6 dry hop. It seems likely nuances are diminished in the sheer bulk of it all. Keeping them in for extended time at high temperatures makes sense that more isomerization is likely. To me the idea is to not boil them so fo whirlpool would be out, other than adding them at fo and chilling quickly.

I tossed them at flameout, then chilled to 160 and then turned off the chiller and let it sit for 30min. It took ~10 minutes to chill (counter flow) 12 gallons down from FO to 160, so I think it ended up being closer to a 5min boil addition in terms of isomerization. 5 minutes of isomerization of 10 ounces of hops can do some damage . I think anything less than 160 should be fine, however I will be targeting 140 before I add my whirlpool hops in the future.

 

[applescrap]

I tossed them at flameout, then chilled to 160 and then turned off the chiller and let it sit for 30min. It took ~10 minutes to chill (counter flow) 12 gallons down from FO to 160, so I think it ended up being closer to a 5min boil addition in terms of isomerization. 5 minutes of isomerization of 10 ounces of hops can do some damage . I think anything less than 160 should be fine, however I will be targeting 140 before I add my whirlpool hops in the future.

key points, 10 oz for 5 min boil is a lot. For some reason, I cant get over not even heating them at all for this style.

 

[Ninoid]

I boil my beers only 5 minutes and get lot of bitterness with hopstand. I throw hop immediately after flame out, wait 20 or 30 minutes and calculate bitterness as 50% of boil. My Brown Ale with 60g (cca 2oz) Columbus is pretty bitter, even too much for that style.

 

[pwessinger]

key points, 10 oz for 5 min boil is a lot. For some reason, I cant get over not even heating them at all for this style.

It wasn't actually a 5 minute boil, but it tasted like the hops had the utilization of 5 mins, even though the boil was dead and the chiller was running.

 

[applescrap]

Your fo is my boil. Water boils waaay lower here at 6k elevation. Plus boil or not, imagine sticking your hand in 198 vs 205. I think it would be hard to tell the difference, same for the hops.

 

[Dgallo]

After reading that article I decided to switch my huge NEIPA whirlpool (which I have brewed many times) from 170 to FO. The first time I performed a FO addition, the beer came out INSANELY too bitter. Repeated the same recipe a month later and dropped it to 140 before dumping in the hops and the beer came out perfect. I will be whirlpooling below 150 from here on out, regardless of brulosophy's results .

I’m with you here. My hop stands are at 150 and I hold the temp within 5 degrees for 90 minutes.

I read an article where they conducted a comparable study of total hop oil content in beers and the perceived flavor impact numerous whirlpool and dry hopping schedules. all beers had the same water profile, grain bill, hops, yeast and fermentation temp. Each beer was hopped at a rate of 2 oz per gallon in total hopping. For example. One beer was 40% whirlpool at 160 for 30 minutes and 60% dryhops at 3 days before kegging. The dry hops ranged from 5 day to 1 day before keg. The whirlpools were a little more involved they ranged in temps from 180-130 and from 30-90 minutes.

The combo that had the most oil content was the 70% whirlpool at 170 for 90 minutes 30% at day 5. However the combo that was chosen to have the greatest perceived flavor and was the most preferred from the blind tasting was the 50% whirlpool at 150 for 90 minutes and 50% dryhop 2 days before kegging.

Did anyone else read this study? I can’t seem to find the link.

 

[couchsending]

Hop oils are not the only part of the hop that contributes to aroma and taste. Thiols have a huge impact on hop aroma and flavor as well. Some of those actually increase with boiling times.

All the comments about adding hops just at FO and getting crazy bitterness perplex me or adding at FO and chilling immediately? You’re sure it’s IBU “bitterness”? When everything is correct with water, pH, etc you should only perceive IBUs at the very front of your pallete then it should fade rather quickly. If you’re getting bitterness that lasts or you perceive at the end of each sip that has nothing to do with IBUs.

Finally got some fresh Tree House this week and was enjoying a Doubleganger last night and how bitter it actually was. But again only bitterness at the very front of the palette. It completely fades and leaves you with nothing. Very light and so easy to drink. The opposite of almost every other commercial NEIPA out there.

 

[razzman]

I brewed an IPA today on a BM50. I've recently started following this thread so I thought I would leave my thoughts.
In the past I would typically do a 60 min and 20 min hop addition and a flameout addition with 15 min stand at flameout. Today I did the 60 min and moved the others forward to a hop stand at 77-68c for 60 mins and the remaining hops I will either add after primary or add to the kegs.
I dropped the the wort temp pretty quickly at flameout to 70c with an IC and the BM pumps, when it hit 70c I turned off the pumps and the wort settled at 77c. I added 100g Citra pellets and turned the pumps back on and after 60mins it was at 68c. I walked into the garage halfway through the hop stand and the smell was awesome! I had not experienced that aroma with hot wort before. So, there you go (as they say) I'm looking forward to trying the beer at kegging and deciding wether to add the keg hops. I will report back in 10 days or so.

 

[pwessinger]

Hop oils are not the only part of the hop that contributes to aroma and taste. Thiols have a huge impact on hop aroma and flavor as well. Some of those actually increase with boiling times.

All the comments about adding hops just at FO and getting crazy bitterness perplex me or adding at FO and chilling immediately? You’re sure it’s IBU “bitterness”? When everything is correct with water, pH, etc you should only perceive IBUs at the very front of your pallete then it should fade rather quickly. If you’re getting bitterness that lasts or you perceive at the end of each sip that has nothing to do with IBUs.

Finally got some fresh Tree House this week and was enjoying a Doubleganger last night and how bitter it actually was. But again only bitterness at the very front of the palette. It completely fades and leaves you with nothing. Very light and so easy to drink. The opposite of almost every other commercial NEIPA out there.

I wasn't 100% sold that it was bitterness at first, however I gave some samples to several BJCP judges and they both agreed - great beer, but far too bitter.

 

[Ninoid]

Less than a month ago I was bottled APA, which I put all the hop into a hopstand. In the beginning he had good bitterness and aroma, but he quickly lost his aroma, and now bitterness is noticeably diminishing.
The beer where I used FWH hop did not lose bitterness over time. I have another batch with all hopstand hop on conditioning so I'll see if this batch will repeat the quick loss of flavor and bitterness.

 

[Dgallo]

Less than a month ago I was bottled APA, which I put all the hop into a hopstand. In the beginning he had good bitterness and aroma, but he quickly lost his aroma, and now bitterness is noticeably diminishing.
The beer where I used FWH hop did not lose bitterness over time. I have another batch with all hopstand hop on conditioning so I'll see if this batch will repeat the quick loss of flavor and bitterness.

This is typical. When you add hops to boil the alpha acids have an increase in isomerization causing them to become more bitter. When they are added they the whirlpool, the lower temperature causes less isomerization so there will be less bitterness. Aroma and flavor fade rather quickly in general but especially when hoppy beers are bottled. Bottling allows for greater risk of oxidization, which is a killer of hoppy beers

 

[Ninoid]

No matter what the hop was added to the hopstand, the bitterness was good in the first few weeks after the bottling.

 

[Dgallo]

No matter what the hop was added to the hopstand, the bitterness was good in the first few weeks after the bottling.

Yes that’s typically hop bittness fades over time. Usually become noticeable at a months time

 

[Ninoid]

Yes that’s typically hop bittness fades over time. Usually become noticeable at a months time

This means that it is necessary to boil a smaller portion of hop for bitterness, and the rest in hopstand or even better dry hop. How much time do have for a dry hop fade in bottled beer?

 

[Dgallo]

Depends on the style you’re going after. Some breweries will hit a bittering addition and then not put another hop in until hopstand. some will even wait til dryhoping as long as the bittering charge hits their intended ibus. Other breweries will crush late and pick up all their bitterness with their late additions with the idea that they will gain flavor and aroma while gaining bitterness. I believe in the latter though my experience. First hop goes in at 8 mins til F.O. and I’ll use 12 oz from then til kegging

 

[Ninoid]

12 oz on 8 minutes before flameout and this is all?

 

[Dgallo]

In all. Usually 3 oz from 8 mins to flame out. 4.5 oz whirlpool @150 and then 4.5 dryhop 3 days before keg

 

[Miraculix]

In all. Usually 3 oz from 8 mins to flame out. 4.5 oz whirlpool @150 and then 4.5 dryhop 3 days before keg

I tried something similar last two batches. Half went in at about ten to five minutes before flame out, then cooling it down to about 75c and then from there one hour hop stand worth the rest. No dry hop, just to be able to see what's going on. Worked quite well!

 

[Dgallo]

I tried something similar last two batches. Half went in at about ten to five minutes before flame out, then cooling it down to about 75c and then from there one hour hop stand worth the rest. No dry hop, just to be able to see what's going on. Worked quite well!

It’s certainly a good way to get bolder flavor with less ibus. I would suggest trying a dryhop next time. Even if it’s a smaller amount like 2/3 oz. It really does benefit the beer greatly.

 

[Footballandhops]

I just cut off the heat and dump my hops in, whirlpool for 20min and then cut the chiller on. I get great aroma and hop flavor this way.

Everytime I try to chill a bit before whirlpool, the bitterness is just very underwhelming.

 

[Dgallo]

Everytime I try to chill a bit before whirlpool, the bitterness is just very underwhelming.

Well that is the purpose of the whirlpool, to obtain flavor with little bitterness. If you are looking for more bitterness hit some in boil

 

[ABI Brewery]

For a long time I have been wondering what some of the techniques for this are, I have just started getting my grains and hops in bulk so I am wondering about hop schedules. Until now I have always brewed a kit from NB, its good but I wanted to get grains in bulk since I now have a 10 gallon system, I have two 12lb bags of Golden Promise, i am going to fire up my BIAB to do 2 5 gallon batches and play with the hop schedule a little bit, I will be doing a SMaSH w/citra, and I also buy my hops in bulk so I have plenty, wondering what everyone thinks about a schedule, 1 1/2 oz a@ 60 then 4 1/2 @ flamout, I havent put anything into beersmith yet but will before I get into the brew day.

 

[Dgallo]

For a long time I have been wondering what some of the techniques for this are, I have just started getting my grains and hops in bulk so I am wondering about hop schedules. Until now I have always brewed a kit from NB, its good but I wanted to get grains in bulk since I now have a 10 gallon system, I have two 12lb bags of Golden Promise, i am going to fire up my BIAB to do 2 5 gallon batches and play with the hop schedule a little bit, I will be doing a SMaSH w/citra, and I also buy my hops in bulk so I have plenty, wondering what everyone thinks about a schedule, 1 1/2 oz a@ 60 then 4 1/2 @ flamout, I havent put anything into beersmith yet but will before I get into the brew day.

Is the 1.5 oz at 6 for 10 gallons or 5? At 10gallons that will give you a nice bitterness since citra is usually around 11-14 aa, if it’s for 5 it will be pretty firm. Only thing i would comment is IMO it’s a waste of citra to use it at 60 since you’ll boil off that beautiful flavor and aroma. I would use magnum at 60 instead and save the citra for later. But if you really want to single hop it than go for it. Won’t hurt any

 

[ABI Brewery]

Im doing 5 gallons, that comment I made about citra @ 60 was just kinda just throwing numbers out there, Ill have to see what I have for bittering but I have amassed a decent stock pile of hops that should be fine instead of the fresh citra. How much magnum @ 60 for that "nice bitterness" you spoke of earlier?

 

[rodwha]

I have made a no bittering addition IPA once and felt it peculiarly missing the bitter. Now I use 1/4-1/2 oz of hops for bittering to get me around 15-20 IBUs and load up at the end. It seems just about perfect to me with a small bittering addition.

 

[Miraculix]

It’s certainly a good way to get bolder flavor with less ibus. I would suggest trying a dryhop next time. Even if it’s a smaller amount like 2/3 oz. It really does benefit the beer greatly.

I tried it once together with such a big late addition and hopstand, a split batch and the dry hopping didn't contribute much. Wasn't worth the hustle, aromas and flavours were already big at the not dry hoped half and the dry hopped version had a bit stronger smell but that was really it.

 

[Dgallo]

I tried it once together with such a big late addition and hopstand, a split batch and the dry hopping didn't contribute much. Wasn't worth the hustle, aromas and flavours were already big at the not dry hoped half and the dry hopped version had a bit stronger smell but that was really it.

I have greatly difference gained through dryhoping without oxygen. I feel it actually makes my beers what they are but I won’t ever argue with someone’s experience, you know what works for you.

 

[Miraculix]

I have greatly difference gained through dryhoping without oxygen. I feel it actually makes my beers what they are but I won’t ever argue with someone’s experience, you know what works for you.

Could be that the oxygen is really muting my dry hop flavours, wouldn't surprise me tbh as I'm fermenting in my boil kettle which is not air tight. But the convenience wins here over hop flavour in my case!