What happened?

[BansheeRider]

So I brewed the 5 gal batch of centennial blonde but with all cascade hops. I did a PM version and hit my target OG of 1040. I just checked the gravity 10 days after fermentation and got 1004. That's 90% attenuation with Nottingham yeast. I fermented at 63-66 degrees for 3 days and then raised the temp to 70-72 for the remainder. My problem is the sample tasted like watered down bud light. In fact bud light probably tastes better. Is this because of the low gravity? I've never had a beer this low in gravity. The target FG is 1009, 5 points off. This was also my first PM. I thought this beer would be better than my extract recipes.

 

[IL1kebeer]

So I brewed the 5 gal batch of centennial blonde but with all cascade hops. I did a PM version and hit my target OG of 1040. I just checked the gravity 10 days after fermentation and got 1004. That's 90% attenuation with Nottingham yeast. I fermented at 63-66 degrees for 3 days and then raised the temp to 70-72 for the remainder. My problem is the sample tasted like watered down bud light. In fact bud light probably tastes better. Is this because of the low gravity? I've never had a beer this low in gravity. The target FG is 1009, 5 points off. This was also my first PM. I thought this beer would be better than my extract recipes.

What temp did you mash at?

 

[BansheeRider]

What temp did you mash at?

150-154 for an hour

 

[stvo]

Check your thermometer if it is off a couple degrees and you mashed your Cascade Blond at 147-148 I could see that happening.

 

[HollisBT]

Check your thermometer if it is off a couple degrees and you mashed your Cascade Blond at 147-148 I could see that happening.

I can't see that being the cause...

Extract brews ALWAYS finish dry... The maltsters create a product that favors a higher fermentation and has fewer dextrins.

I would say that the relatively low OG, aggressive yeast, and wort full of fermentables lead to the low FG. The sacc probably ate all of the sugars and were just getting started in this beer. What was the grain bill? Did you build any dextrins?

 

[gcdowd]

For what it's worth, my centennial blonde finished at 1.004 as well. It was a great beer too. I think I mashed at 150

 

[JuiceyJay]

Just give it time, a sample is not a great way to judge final taste after Carbonating and a little aging

 

[BansheeRider]

I can't see that being the cause...

Extract brews ALWAYS finish dry... The maltsters create a product that favors a higher fermentation and has fewer dextrins.

I would say that the relatively low OG, aggressive yeast, and wort full of fermentables lead to the low FG. The sacc probably ate all of the sugars and were just getting started in this beer. What was the grain bill? Did you build any dextrins?

It was about 6lbs of base malt and 1lb of specialty grain. I added 1lb of LDME in the last 15 min of the boil.

For what it's worth, my centennial blonde finished at 1.004 as well. It was a great beer too. I think I mashed at 150

That's good to hear. So there's hope....

Just give it time, a sample is not a great way to judge final taste after Carbonating and a little aging

I ferment most of my low gravity beers for 2-3 weeks and then keg. I still have another 2 weeks to go with this one.

 

[Yooper]

It was about 6lbs of base malt and 1lb of specialty grain. I added 1lb of LDME in the last 15 min of the boil.



That's good to hear. So there's hope....



I ferment most of my low gravity beers for 2-3 weeks and then keg. I still have another 2 weeks to go with this one.

I would double check (or triple check) your thermometer. Mashing at "150-154" is too big of a difference to really be accurate. Mashing at 150 would favor a thinner, drier beer (which you got), while mashing at 154 would favor a medium to full bodied beer with a higher FG.

If you started at 154, and it dropped to 150 over an hour, maybe you could find something to cover the MLT to hold the heat in. But if the thermometer is even two degrees off, maybe you mashed at 148, which would create a very thin light bodied beer with a low FG.

 

[BansheeRider]

I would double check (or triple check) your thermometer. Mashing at "150-154" is too big of a difference to really be accurate. Mashing at 150 would favor a thinner, drier beer (which you got), while mashing at 154 would favor a medium to full bodied beer with a higher FG.

If you started at 154, and it dropped to 150 over an hour, maybe you could find something to cover the MLT to hold the heat in. But if the thermometer is even two degrees off, maybe you mashed at 148, which would create a very thin light bodied beer with a low FG.

Ok so it was probably my mashing. I did the BIAB method and put my kettle in the oven to maintain temp. I used a floating thermometer which is accurate. Maybe the temp lowered a bit when I stirred the grain half way through the mash.

 

[Yooper]

Ok so it was probably my mashing. I did the BIAB method and put my kettle in the oven to maintain temp. I used a floating thermometer which is accurate. Maybe the temp lowered a bit when I stirred the grain half way through the mash.

That, or if the grain was in a bag and was compressed a bit, it could have been much cooler in the inside than the outside. BIAB is fine, but the grain should be very loose, and the temperature should be checked inside the grainbed as well.

What I do when I mash in (not BIAB but same principal) is stir well, then check the temperature in several places. If it's different in two places (and it always is), stir some more. The temperature should be equal throughout the entire mash. Then it can be covered and temperature maintained.

 

[JimRausch]

I can't see that being the cause...

Extract brews ALWAYS finish dry... The maltsters create a product that favors a higher fermentation and has fewer dextrins.

I QUOTE]

Hmmm. Interesting statement HollisBT, and kind of opposite what I have thought and experienced. I'm moving more and more into AG now, but in the past my extract and PM recipes always seemed to finish with a FG higher than the corresponding AG recipe, which I attributed to extracts having fewer simple fermentables than you create yourself when you AG. Not starting an argument here, just my observations.

 

[HollisBT]

It depends on several factors. The shelf the extract, the yeast used, how much is pitched, what specialty grains are added, O2 levels, etc etc.

It was always my experience that extract brews finished lower and with greater ease than AG brews, and my understanding was simply that by the nature of the product you have less control over an extract brew.

All things considered, if the 1 pound of "specialty grain" was a light crystal (which for a blonde ale I would assume it is) mashed in the low 150's, it's going to be a highly fermentable wort with little to no dextrins to build body.

Not to mention, directly from the danstar website, regarding Nottingham yeast: high attenuation with a final gravity near 1.008. Seems to have worked as advertised.

 

[Yooper]

It depends on several factors. The shelf the extract, the yeast used, how much is pitched, what specialty grains are added, O2 levels, etc etc.

It was always my experience that extract brews finished lower and with greater ease than AG brews, and my understanding was simply that by the nature of the product you have less control over an extract brew.

All things considered, if the 1 pound of "specialty grain" was a light crystal (which for a blonde ale I would assume it is) mashed in the low 150's, it's going to be a highly fermentable wort with little to no dextrins to build body.

Not to mention, directly from the danstar website, regarding Nottingham yeast: high attenuation with a final gravity near 1.008. Seems to have worked as advertised.

And it's funny, because my experience was entirely the opposite. I had many many extract beers suffer from the "1.020 curse" and not drop any lower than 1.020, no matter what I did. They turned out to be good beers, but those primarily made with extract always stopped higher than I wanted or forecasted. Even when I added the bulk of the extract late in the boil, or at the end of the boil, it seemed like extract was less fermentable than the comparable AG batch.

I looked it up on each extract manufacturer's website, and found that Laaglander (which is no longer made) was something like 55% fermentable, while Munton's was 75% fermentable. I figured that was the cause, and just lived with it until I brewed only all grain a year or two later.

 

[JimRausch]

Thanks Yooper, I'm relieved that I wasn't the only one observing the 'extract 1.020 curse'.

 

[BansheeRider]

Thanks for all the info guys. I guess I'll pay more attention to the mash temp. The difference between a few degrees is dramatic. I may need to upgrade some equipment as well. I did all this in a 5 gal kettle and dunk rinsed in a 2 gal pot. I need some equipment upgrades for sure to have better quality beer and better brewing control.

 

[freisste]

Thanks for all the info guys. I guess I'll pay more attention to the mash temp. The difference between a few degrees is dramatic. I may need to upgrade some equipment as well. I did all this in a 5 gal kettle and dunk rinsed in a 2 gal pot. I need some equipment upgrades for sure to have better quality beer and better brewing control.

A couple degrees makes all the difference! There are different points to mash (and there are pH vs. temp "maps" that show different ranges and what they cause) but the most notable to new brewers are the alpha and beta amalase regions. The top and bottom of the "accepted" range is like 145-158f. In a 13degree range (and forgive me if my numbers are slightly off) 2 degrees can be big.

But I bet you still made tasty beer, even if it isn't exactly what you expected.

 

[JLem]

Thanks Yooper, I'm relieved that I wasn't the only one observing the 'extract 1.020 curse'.

All my extract beers also tended to finish high. The curse of 1.020 is not a myth!

 

[BansheeRider]

A couple degrees makes all the difference! There are different points to mash (and there are pH vs. temp "maps" that show different ranges and what they cause) but the most notable to new brewers are the alpha and beta amalase regions. The top and bottom of the "accepted" range is like 145-158f. In a 13degree range (and forgive me if my numbers are slightly off) 2 degrees can be big.

But I bet you still made tasty beer, even if it isn't exactly what you expected.

It's just a bit watered down, but again it was a hydrometer sample. Maybe it will taste better when cold and carbed.

 

[Face Eater]

Definitely wait until it's done and carbed up. I had a few brews seem really watered down before carbing and came out awesome after carbing. Carbonation does wonders for a beer and the mouth feel. Also I have had extracts finish low and some finish high. That's the beauty of all grain, more control.

 

[HollisBT]

I guess everyone has a bit of different experience, but from my extract days my problem was always finishing low. I never had an issue with one finishing high or sticking.