Over on the other forum some brewers have started replacing brewtan with acid from pomegranate. I think its called oleic acid but could be wrong (checked and it's ellagic acid). Supposed to be easier to source than brewtan.
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Found it online at Great Fermentations. Got two packets, maybe 2 oz each. Still working on the first one. A little goes a long way when you only use 3.5 grams per brew session.Sodium Metasulite for the oxygen, ascorbic acid for scurvy eh mash pH, but where are you finding the BrewTan B for sale?
Clear wort can easily achieve by either filter with another bag pre boil or let post boil cool a little slower say 2 hours or so. Most heavy stuff dropped to the bottom and you can use siphon to draw out crystal clear wort from the top. I have done that multiple times, but never see any improvement. In fact I pour everything into the fermentor and had not issue at all beside wasting 1 litre or so in the end.
Actually it seems to me that Low Dissolved Oxygen methods should be part all brew procedure discussions. For example pre-boiling your strike water then cool to the strike temperature and not splashing hot side wort can be done by any brewer and perhaps should be. The real game changer for me in reducing the oxidation in my beers was moving from bucket bottling to closed beer transfers to kegs. Also stopping the dry hop practice which was too risky. The true is I tell people using kegs are so much faster and easier in every way over bottling. After a certain amount of brews you'll ask yourself am I committed enough and tired enough of bottling to make the change. It's like a brewer before the era of BIAB considering paring down his brewing footprint.
What is your process for this?Preach to the choir, Brother! I'm doing all those things now, although I did drop some dry hops on a pale ale yesterday. First time in 8 or 10 months.
On another point, have you tried yeast oxygen scavenging instead of pre-boiling for deoxygenizing? I was skeptical at first, but it really works quite nicely, and you don't have to chill your strike water down to mash-in temperature. I treat mine the night before since it stays deoxygenated for up to a week after treatment. Then I just start heating the water immediately for dough-in. Works great.
Brooo Brother
Sodium Metasulite for the oxygen, ascorbic acid for scurvy eh mash pH, but where are you finding the BrewTan B for sale?
We were on a thread of discussing how to do a side by side comparison of a batch where no mash trub makes it into a kettle vs one that has mash sediment. I speculated that you could allow wort to settle prior to the boil and rack the top half to a separate kettle. He was suggesting wort doesn't settle well until the hot break occurs. That's not to say there are not benefits to leaving kettle trub behind but we were backed up from there talking about mash trub, grain particles ore whatever you want to call it.
yeast oxygen scavenging
Bobby - just want to say it's a shame that no one is energized by this thread. Crickets, right?
What is there to be energized about? My guess is that there is a high proportion of people on this forum who already BIAB.
Well thought through Bobby. Thanks for posting. One thing to potentially add to your item number 4 is an idea from the recently passed Pat Holingdale who did so much to pioneer BIAB over in the land of Oz (as in Australia).
We often compare BIAB with a 60 minute mash to a three vessel system with a 60 minute mash and an x minute fly sparge or batch sparge. Let's say lauter and sparge take 20 minutes. So the real comparison should be 80 minute BIAB mash to 80 minute mash, lauter, sparge and transfer of wort to boil kettle. Pat always said 90 minutes was a better estimate and therefore recommended a 90 minute BIAB mash.
Given that, the extra 1 or 2 pounds of grain you mention may not be necessary at all - each brewers experience will tell.
Not that the 1 or 2 pounds of grain is not one way to skin that cat. It is.
The other piece with a longer mash may be revealed above by RM-MN.. Take time enough to extract the sugars, but also the unique blend of flavors in a specific recipe.
Thanks again for posting this.
oh, i missed that part. But similarly I would argue mash with coarse mill or use find mesh bag. I tried them too, with great success getting clear wort in single kettle. But really what I tried to say is mash sediment does not has any effect during boil or in fermentation from my experience. Clear wort can be done with BIAB, but additionally I am in that camp where turb is not a concern at all stage until before package.We were on a thread of discussing how to do a side by side comparison of a batch where no mash trub makes it into a kettle vs one that has mash sediment. I speculated that you could allow wort to settle prior to the boil and rack the top half to a separate kettle. He was suggesting wort doesn't settle well until the hot break occurs. That's not to say there are not benefits to leaving kettle trub behind but we were backed up from there talking about mash trub, grain particles ore whatever you want to call it.
oh, i missed that part. But similarly I would argue mash with coarse mill or use find mesh bag. I tried them too, with great success getting clear wort in single kettle. But really what I tried to say is mash sediment does not has any effect during boil or in fermentation from my experience. Clear wort can be done with BIAB, but additionally I am in that camp where turb is not a concern at all stage until before package.
Saying or thinking that a cloudy wort doesn't negatively affect beer quality is a hypothesis.
The righteous path forward is experimentation.
In respect of clarity issues, i have not found clarity any different by using a bag, but i do recirculate. In respect of rice hulls i was a once an avid user of them in high flaked oat mashes, now i dont use at all, they have a tea like smell once you start the transfer from the higher mash out temperature.Be interesting what others think too.Earlier on in this post we discussed nuances in brewing and this is just one of perhaps hundreds of little things that brewers do differently. I'm always looking for a better way to skin a cat, but for others changed is harder.
I found a very similar situation or nuance with rice hulls. In one of those first principle moments reviewing my procedures I hit upon the idea to check the "clean" rice hulls I used for wheat beers. I added 2 grams to 8 ounces of 150 F water which made a medium colored tea with an awful smell and a very strong rice flavor! Holy S**t (can i say that here?)! I checked all the online information sources, including HBT, and found nothing but "rice hulls have not effect on beer". So I then purchased some poundage from the next two largest online stores. The two new "clean" rice hulls made teas that were indistinguishable and equally horrible. So I came up with a cleaning procedure and ran about 12 pounds through boiling, rinsing, and oven drying (bad smell). The results were maybe 95% better but after a couple more brews I just stopped using the rice hulls altogether. A false bottom mash tun (or BIAB system) with a brew bag when under let (BIAB lowered) and not stirred (requires continuous recirculation) just never gets stuck, hence no filtration aid is ever needed.
In regards to clear wort benefits, the literature is out there. As I stated previously, my beers became smoother and without harshness when I started boiling clear wort and putting only clear wort into the fermenters. Though I didn't perform these two methods side by side, they do agree with the literature.
Bobby, you would probably know as well as anyone what steps or hardware might improve the different BIAB systems out there to make a clearer wort. I use a 2 vessel-RIMS-pump system and don't have experience with a BIAB system. I have studied them and if I was just starting out would be very tempted to purchase the Clawhammer Supply BIAB system and use a brew bag in the grain basket. And definitely no rice hulls!
What is your process for this?
It was about the yeast scavenging, thanks! Do you have a link to the German thread maybe?Was the question about dry hopping or YOS? For the dry hop (1st one in a while) I just went old school: remove the top TC fitting just long enough to drop in 2 oz of hops. Certainly not LoDO 'compliant', but fermentation was still active 5 days in so hopefully the yeast will mitigate any O2 that crashed the party, even if it is gaseous O2 in the headspace instead of dissolved O2 in the wort.
As to the Yeast Oxygen Scavenging, it's amazingly simple. I just fill the wort liquor tank (in this case my all-in-one Braumeister) literally to the brim with water from the faucet. I adjust the flow between hot/cold to get 95F-104F water temperature, which is the most 'difficult' part of the process. Then I sprinkle basic bread yeast onto the surface at a rate of 2 grams per gallon H2O. Put on the lid and go to bed.
Then next morning I drain off 3~4 gallons of reserve/topoff/sparge water and start the mash water warming to 55C strike temperature. According to the data posted by the German LOB forum, the level of dissolved O2 is nearly undetectable and stays that way until the yeast are denatured by the heat from the mash. The mash water does appear to be a thin milky white when doughing-in, but it has no effect on the mash or the wort other than scavenging virtually all the D.O. That said, I don't own a D.O. meter so can't empirically validate their data. However the results I see in my finished beer certainly seem to support it, at least anecdotally.
Sure. I'll dig it up. It's on my computer and I'm currently on my cell typing. I know I've got it bookmarked.It was about the yeast scavenging, thanks! Do you have a link to the German thread maybe?
Cheers!Sure. I'll dig it up. It's on my computer and I'm currently on my cell typing. I know I've got it bookmarked.
I think any time the boil kettle is part of the mash wort path, there's a chance of sediment. In a 2 vessel kettle RIMS system, I would be inclined to let all of the wort from the boil kettle get pumped to the mash tun at the end of the mash, give the kettle a rinse, and then run the wort over to the kettle.
A system like the clawhammer would definitely result in typical cloudy BIAB wort.
I'm sitting here catching up on this thread, reading all the posts about clarity, pumps, multiple vessels, RIMS, chilling, etc.........and I hold my beer up to the screen.
In the photo you can see the clarity, the head retention, and the lacing. What you can't see is the great taste and the wonderful mouthfeel. It was brewed single vessel BIAB with no sparge, no re-circulation, no squeeze, and no chill. Fermentation gas purged the keg prior to a gravity powered closed transfer.
Some folks love complexity, and there's nothing wrong with that. I love elegant simplicity. It would bug me to brew on a system that I knew was more complicated than it had to be.
To me that's the heart of what BIAB has brought to the table. It has revealed that home brewers have been unnecessarily complicating the process for a very long time. Some are still trying to justify it, but the cat's out of the bag.
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I don't know the numbers, but I'd be surprise if BIAB broke over the 30% mark across the forum. That's a guess, but I think there are way more 3 vessel brewers out there. It's shifting to BIAB via all the new all in one systems but there's half a century of tradition to make up for.
I've been using the pulley included with my Wilser package. I'm back into brewing after a 5-6 year hiatus and the BIAB is so much better than my old braid in a cooler. But, for simplicity sake, I may forego the pulley in lieu of a colander. The US Chef Store has a huge, heavy duty colander that will fit over my brew pot. Only $20 or so. Easier than dragging out my ridiculously heavy ladder. Either way, BIAB for the rest of my brewing days.To the “Hot sticky bag” argument. An overhead pulley is not the only way to remove the bag. See the picture below. The bag is inside the basket. After setting the basket and bag on the grating I use a pair of heavy rubber gloves to squeeze the bag. I do 5.5 gallon batches so there is anywhere from 9 to 14 lbs of grist in the bag (plus water) when I pull it. No mess, no fuss.
I have thought of trying the pulley system but my Dad always said; “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”.
I couldn't agree more about the spraying BS. It's why I used a locline tube for my recirc, to put the outflow below liquid.
I just switched to this after trying a spiral spray nozzle and then a hose that theoretically was lying on top of the grain bed. Locline is definitely the way to go if one is recirculating. I get a nice gentle swirling and if I lift the lid its no mess, no fuss.
Well said.First let me say that I really don't give a damn WHAT method you chose, as long as you enjoy yourself, make beer you like, and are happy. As a brewer who has made beers for 35 years, and has brewed with 3 vessel, BIAB, All-in-one, HERMS, and recently lost ALL of my equipment to fire and thus could choose ANY system or style I liked to rebuild my brewing, I would like to make a couple of observations on this topic - play a little Satan advocate if you will:
For starters, I have not seen this much rationalization and positive affirmation in one place since Stuart Smally was a character on Saturday Night Live! ANYTHING so completely free of flaw, and so wrought full of virtue, simplicity, and utter excellence RARELY needs such devoted and wholesale defense! Odd.
ALL BREWING SYSTEMS - Have issues. All require some attention to water chemistry, can produce unwanted characteristics, and need attention at differing points and times. ALL can and do produce fine beers. ALL can produce excellent beers, and are far more dependent on the cook and the ingredients than the pots and pans used to make it.
Let me look at some of the downsides I EXPERIENCED in my home brewing with BIAB, and why I dropped it to begin with and why I had/have ZERO interest in it as i rebuild. (I know some of these things will come as a shock to many of the readers on this thread since once again a good common sense thread about BIAB, has morphed into an inclusion of LODO, and has gradually devolved into a religious tome wherein the miracles of this system are rivaled only by the resurrection of Lazarus, and maybe the whole loaves and fishes thingy!
I heat my water for mash in a 5 gallon pot on the kitchen stove. I mash in a 10 gallon cooler on the counter. I sparge into a 10 gallon pot, take it on the porch and boil away. I heat a bit more than half my water for the mash. It does not take long on the stove. I crush grain and get parts together while it warms. I mash for an hour which is MORE than enough time to heat sparge water to temp. This sits a few minutes in the mash tun before draining. Pretty typical sort of 3 vessel.
Now when I tried BIAB I had to heat ALL the water at once- but still had to do so on the stove. I could have bought another expensive 10+ gallon pot to do this BUT it would not fit on the stove anyway and even if it did it would have taken a whole lot longer to get it ALL up to temp. Getting the 20 gallon BIAB pot on the stove was out of the question entirely! SURE i could have built a big expensive brew room with heater big enough to heat ALL the water at once in the 20 gal. but I don't want to. SO I had to heat it all in three pots (Still more gear for this SIMPLE system) Then I DID have to buy a much bigger brew pot because my ten gallon pot was not big enough for am huge bag of grain and ALL the water. So more expense AND a BIGGER pot that is more of a pain to store, clean, handle, move when full, etc. Then of course there is that whole LIFTING IT THING. So now I need to install a pulley in my kitchen ceiling (WE already established I do not have time, money or desire to build a dedicated brewery room) I do not WANT a pulley in my kitchen ceiling. So I either need to recruit someone to brew with EVERY TIME I BREW, so we can both stand there like fools holding a hot bag of wet grain. OR jury rig some sort of ladder, tri-pod or other system to hold a pulley to life the heavy wet bag. WAY convenient so far. And so far all i can see i have saved for TIME is the short period of waiting for the sparge to be done the second time, so a few minutes. (I lost all these few minutes dragging the clumsy ladder rig in and out of the house and fussing around with the pulley) So now i have wort, and I gotta tote that big ass 20 gallon pot out the door to the porch to boil. The old 10 gallon was awkward enough but the big pot is a real pain. I prefer to brew alone - and like to brew on MY schedule, not dependent on having someone else on hand all the time. But now i am horsing around giant pots that don't get lighter as I age! They will not for you either. Still, boil and pitch and done!
So now the clean up - AH YES the clean up, where BIAB REALLY kicks ass! So in stead of wiping out my ONE water pot and storing it, I now have three. STILL is is only water, so easy. Then I have to go outside and dump my grain out of the cooler, and rinse it out with the hose. THAT takes pert-near 5 minutes. When I did BIAB, I had to drag the bag outside and dump it, then clean it out. Thing is AFTER draining the wort initially, I STILL had a messy bag hanging there, and it was still dripping. SO I needed a pot to catch the drips which had to be cleaned (another item to clean) And it took a good half hour to get ALL THE CRAP off the bag, and get the bag washed up. So I cannot see the clean up advantage to BIAB, I gotta clean a tun or a bag one way or the other, and I need something to catch the drips or else i have to mop up the mess when done. After the boil, I gotta clean a big heavy 10 gal pot or an even bigger heavier 20 gal pot. Point is, I still gotta clean up pots and bags and utensils and saying that BIAB is less dirty, easier clean up, simpler, is just self- deluding.
So far I have had to buy more water pots, OR try to fit a big old 20 gallon pot on my stove (Even if I could do this and was willing to wait half a day for it to get to temp, I still at SOME POINT need to move this WHOLE POT full of water or i can't use my rigged up pulley to lift things. So for necessity I HAVE TO heat the water separately and add it to my BIAB pot.) I need to clan a bag or a mash tun, I need to move a big pot or bigger pot to boil. I have to clean my pot. I do not yet see any savings on cost or convenience - NONE
Now you can argue, that I am twisting some things, or that my circumstance is different than yours - True to some extent on both counts. I COULD put my heavier, more costly 20 gallon pot out on the porch and heat it there. I COULD rig my jury rigged ladder pulley outside over the top. Then I could just heat in one pot, drain, boil, WOOHOO!!!! But I still gotta buy heavier more expensive gear. Rig a pulley. Put a catch pot under the drippy bag. clean out a mash bag. AND adjust my grind, recipe, water chemistry, etc from all my old recipes. Now ALL while freezing my ass off 8 months out of the year on the porch. BIG FUN THAT! Thank you BIAB preachers! Thank you!
The fact is as I said to start: ALL SYSTEMS have negatives. All have positives> If yours fits your environment, lifestyle, brewing needs, etc. THEN ENJOY IT and be happy. But I would suggest that endless rationalization and defensiveness really does nothing to further the cause for ANY brewing style. And it feels to me like more than ANY other system the BIAB seems to foster a sort of zealous insistence that new brewers must join in and old brewers must convert than anything else i have seen. In my circumstance/environment I found BIAB at BEST an inconvenient PITA. It does not mean you will or should. In a different circumstance I might find it a joy. When I had a large dedicated space, I also had a HERMS system and did not mess with BIAB, perhaps in that environment it would have been great. But in my original kitchen set up, then in the kitchen set up at our home that burned, as well as the one we are in now - it offers nothing but bulky gear, and mess. I brewed for the first time since the fire on a hotch-pot assortment of a 3-vessel system that friends and family fixed me up with as a surprise! Currently it is THE BEST system I ever had! Had I had the spare cash, I probably would have gone to an all-in-one of some sort. I had an anvil for a short period that I sold to a nephew before our fire - I liked it. But the igloo cooler, water pot, 10 gallon boil kettle works like a charm and fits our current kitchen and porch just dandy.
NO SYSTEM is perfect- use what you like and do not work so hard to prove yours is best. It is really only BEST for YOU. There is a difference.
...........The fact is as I said to start: ALL SYSTEMS have negatives. All have positives> If yours fits your environment, lifestyle, brewing needs, etc. THEN ENJOY IT and be happy. But I would suggest that endless rationalization and defensiveness really does nothing to further the cause for ANY brewing style. And it feels to me like more than ANY other system the BIAB seems to foster a sort of zealous insistence that new brewers must join in and old brewers must convert than anything else i have seen.
Yes, it's a great system. Simple and efficient. I think I'll make one like tha@Bobby_M I just saw your YouTube video over the weekend. I'd love to see more about your system and process.
@Bobby_M I just saw your YouTube video over the weekend. I'd love to see more about your system and process.
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