Belgian Dark Strong Ale Westvleteren 12 Clone - Multiple Award Winner

[eujamfh]

So I have both versions of this (CSI and pious) and I am debating if I should keg or bottle.

I will bulk age for another couple months then use harvested yeast if I bottle but wondering if folks have done both and what version they preferred.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

So I have both versions of this (CSI and pious) and I am debating if I should keg or bottle.

I will bulk age for another couple months then use harvested yeast if I bottle but wondering if folks have done both and what version they preferred.

You want to age this beer for at least 2 years, more if possible. I decided to bottle mine and age it in the bottle so that my keg is not out of use for other beers for two or more years.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Good day everyone,

It's now sitting in the temperature controlled fermentation chamber, and fermentation didn't kick in as strongly as I'm used to with the Wyeast 3787.
After 3 days, I only got a layer of 2 inches of Krausen, and it's the highest it got in that time.
For reference, I had a blowoff with the same yeast in a lighter Belgian Trippel after 24 hours, using a 8 gal fermenter. But that was at 69F.

Did I underpitch? I made a 3l starter on stir plate, and oxygenated the wort with pure O2 for 90 sec.
Is it normal given the somewhat low temperatures during the first days?

Thanks for your feedback.

Did you ramp your temperature up from 63 to 80 F over 7 days?

 

[Elkaybay]

Yes, I'm now at the 7 day mark and at 80F. Krausen increased in volume, but really not much (2-3 inches above beer level).
Gravity is still 1035.
I guess I should wait another few days at this temp before going to secondary.
Or would you recommend pitching more?

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Yes, I'm now at the 7 day mark and at 80F. Krausen increased in volume, but really not much (2-3 inches above beer level).
Gravity is still 1035.
I guess I should wait another few days at this temp before going to secondary.
Or would you recommend pitching more?

My S.G. on Day 6 was 1.010. I'm surprised that you are still at 1.035. Did you try adding some yeast nutrient? Might not hurt to add a little more yeast as well.

 

[jtp137]

My S.G. on Day 6 was 1.010. I'm surprised that you are still at 1.035. Did you try adding some yeast nutrient? Might not hurt to add a little more yeast as well.

I have trouble with this yeast as well what nutrient are you using maybe thats what i am missing. Next batch may try to only pitch fresh krousen have not figured out how to do it for 10 gallon batch may try the rocherfort yeast or wlp500 which always works well for me

 

[Elkaybay]

My S.G. on Day 6 was 1.010. I'm surprised that you are still at 1.035. Did you try adding some yeast nutrient? Might not hurt to add a little more yeast as well.

Alright I'll get a new small starter going tonight and repitch tomorrow.
I'm a bit puzzled since I oxygenated with pure O2, added yeast nutrients, pitched at a good temperature, had a starter of 3 litres.
I really don't know what I will have to do differently next time, except maybe doubling the starter size

As long as my gravity stays in the 1020-1030s, should I keep the temperature at 80F? And only start lowering it when going to secondary?
Isn't there any risk keeping it a few days at this high temp?

Thanks guys!

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I have trouble with this yeast as well what nutrient are you using maybe thats what i am missing. Next batch may try to only pitch fresh krousen have not figured out how to do it for 10 gallon batch may try the rocherfort yeast or wlp500 which always works well for me

I used 3/8 teaspoon of Andovin Super Nutrient to the 2 liter yeast starter. I also gave the yeast starter about 15-20 seconds of pure O2 after shaking the flask for 30 seconds. However, I made a 5 gallon batch. For 10 gallons, you will likely need about double the amount of yeast.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Alright I'll get a new small starter going tonight and repitch tomorrow.
I'm a bit puzzled since I oxygenated with pure O2, added yeast nutrients, pitched at a good temperature, had a starter of 3 litres.
I really don't know what I will have to do differently next time, except maybe doubling the starter size

Seems like you did everything correctly. Were you makihng 5 or 10 gallons? Also, how old was the yeast at the time you made the starter?

As long as my gravity stays in the 1020-1030s, should I keep the temperature at 80F? And only start lowering it when going to secondary?
Isn't there any risk keeping it a few days at this high temp?

I think it would be fine to do so. Perhaps CSI can provide some advice.

 

[Elkaybay]

Seems like you did everything correctly. Were you makihng 5 or 10 gallons? Also, how old was the yeast at the time you made the starter?

I think it would be fine to do so. Perhaps CSI can provide some advice.

We're talking about a 5 gallon batch. The yeast is from December 2015, always kept in the fridge. I know it's still vigorous since I had to use a blowoff tube on a Trippel I'm fermenting at the same time.

Thanks!

 

[Bottoms_Up]

We're talking about a 5 gallon batch. The yeast is from December 2015, always kept in the fridge. I know it's still vigorous since I had to use a blowoff tube on a Trippel I'm fermenting at the same time.

Thanks!

Very odd!

 

[endisnigh]

The same thing happened to me recently, although I got it down to 1.019 in the end - a second 3.5L pitch moved the needle by a couple of points.

Are we seeing this happening more frequently recently for some reason?

 

[Elkaybay]

The same thing happened to me recently, although I got it down to 1.019 in the end - a second 3.5L pitch moved the needle by a couple of points.

Are we seeing this happening more frequently recently for some reason?

Did you keep it at 80F until full attenuation?

 

[endisnigh]

I did - see my post here (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=500037&page=65) for details....

 

[Elkaybay]

I did - see my post here (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=500037&page=65) for details....

Thanks for the link.
You mentioned that bottling at higher gravity was a bad idea.
If the fermentation is really over, what's the issue?
Thanks!

 

[endisnigh]

Thanks for the link.
You mentioned that bottling at higher gravity was a bad idea.
If the fermentation is really over, what's the issue?
Thanks!

Good question. You're right in saying that the fermentation is over (for that particular strain of yeast at least). However at 1.019 it's a little sweeter than it should be. It should have gone down a few more points and ended up slightly drier.

That said, it's still really delicious - wonderful depth of fruity/spicy complexity. But a little too sweet for my liking.

 

[jtp137]

Good question. You're right in saying that the fermentation is over (for that particular strain of yeast at least). However at 1.019 it's a little sweeter than it should be. It should have gone down a few more points and ended up slightly drier.



That said, it's still really delicious - wonderful depth of fruity/spicy complexity. But a little too sweet for my liking.

I had a couple of batches of this finish around 1.014 and I thought that was too sweet 1.019 is pretty high i would warm it up and repitch a different yeast dont think you will be happy at 1.019

 

[jtp137]

I am about to tackle attempt number three hopefully it will not stall out at 1.020 again. Here is what I want to try in order to get down to 1.012I want to only pick one

1. Mash in at 140 and slowly raise to 160 over 2 hours (my herms is perfect for this)

2. Bigger pitch rate 1.25 mm cells / ml / degree plato

3. Another blast of pure O2 6 hours after the first one (dont know about this one since lag time is usually small for this beer)

4. Pitch at 64 degrees place in 68 ambient let naturally rise to 85 and hold it there guessing it will only take a day or 2 to free rise

5. Figure out how to only pitch fresh krousen from starter

 

[cyanmonkey]

I am about to tackle attempt number three hopefully it will not stall out at 1.020 again. Here is what I want to try in order to get down to 1.012I want to only pick one

1. Mash in at 140 and slowly raise to 160 over 2 hours (my herms is perfect for this)

2. Bigger pitch rate 1.25 mm cells / ml / degree plato

3. Another blast of pure O2 6 hours after the first one (dont know about this one since lag time is usually small for this beer)

4. Pitch at 64 degrees place in 68 ambient let naturally rise to 85 and hold it there guessing it will only take a day or 2 to free rise

5. Figure out how to only pitch fresh krousen from starter

85 is pretty f'ing hot. When you pitch yeast from high krausen you would make a beer with that yeast and "top crop" with the krausen and make a starter from that.

If you're slow rising over 2 hours from 140, I feel like most of your conversion would happen @ 140.

If you've had TWO brews kick out at 1.020 it sounds like there's something else going on. Especially with this specific yeast strain. (It's kind of a beast.)

 

[jtp137]

85 is pretty f'ing hot. When you pitch yeast from high krausen you would make a beer with that yeast and "top crop" with the krausen and make a starter from that.



If you're slow rising over 2 hours from 140, I feel like most of your conversion would happen @ 140.



If you've had TWO brews kick out at 1.020 it sounds like there's something else going on. Especially with this specific yeast strain. (It's kind of a beast.)

I have made so many high gravity beers double ipa's, imperial stouts, tripels and dark strongs and this is the only yeast that has given me problems. i have no idea why, but reading through this thread I can see that I am not alone and others have attenuation problems with this yeast

I made a blonde with wlp530 1.066 and it finished fine 1.010 slow rise fermentation 65 to 80 over 8 days

 

[user 141939]

I made this once and didn't have an issue with fg. I didn't use krausen but for my last step for the starter, I think I pretty much already had the numbers I needed, but I made a small starter anyway and let it go for 8 hours or so just so that my yeast were raging when I pitched. I got the gravity down all the way in 7 days, following the temp schedule to the T. I didn't deviate from any mash Temps or fermenter temps. And only oxygenated once. And have you been using the servo?

Not sure if that helps at all.

 

[jtp137]

I made this once and didn't have an issue with fg. I didn't use krausen but for my last step for the starter, I think I pretty much already had the numbers I needed, but I made a small starter anyway and let it go for 8 hours or so just so that my yeast were raging when I pitched. I got the gravity down all the way in 7 days, following the temp schedule to the T. I didn't deviate from any mash Temps or fermenter temps. And only oxygenated once. And have you been using the servo?

Not sure if that helps at all.

No servo maybe that will be the next thing I try

 

[stonebrewer]

Tried to brew this today, but ran into a plethora of issues. First decoction ever and I have to say my equipment had issues that I have never had, and I think it was due to the decoction. First off, I have a Stout mash tun and it was cold today, and I did not have reflectix on the tun, so the decoctions were taking so long I could not hit my temps. So I tried to recirculate with the burner on to get the temps up. COMPLETELY clogged my false bottom, over and over and over again. I think this was due to the decoction breaking down the grain and clogging up my tun. So I ended up stirring the mash the entire time and eventually made beer. I normally use my RIMS, but did not turn it on, opting to use my smaller burner instead. Ended up at 1.085, as I could not maintain a rolling boil and my helper for today insisted to keep the lid mostly on, which I never do. Hopefully this will come out well, but think I need to wait for warmer temps and use reflectix on the tun before I attempt it again. Still looking forward to how this turns out as it is my first decoction mash! Cheers and thanks for the the recipe!!

 

[stonebrewer]

Fermentation is rolling hard! I added a blanket after about 20 hours and the temp is now about 80-82F and steady. I think this is going to come out fine, despite the brew day problems with a stuck mash. The D-180, which I have only used once before, is a great candi! Love the flavor so much it was hard to feed it all to the yeast.

 

[jtp137]

Fermentation is rolling hard! I added a blanket after about 20 hours and the temp is now about 80-82F and steady. I think this is going to come out fine, despite the brew day problems with a stuck mash. The D-180, which I have only used once before, is a great candi! Love the flavor so much it was hard to feed it all to the yeast.

80 after 20 hours is pretty hot pretty fast

 

[stonebrewer]

80 after 20 hours is pretty hot pretty fast

Reading earlier posts by saq, seemed that I should start out mid 60's and ramp up quickly and hold at 82 or so. Maybe I misread, but not going to read through the whole thread again. I will say that fermentation, though strong, is definitely slowing a bit today so you may be onto something...I take good notes though and should get better at this over time. Will see how this turns out and if it has issues will ramp the temps up more slowly. I have not applied heat, just let it rise and then wrapped a blanket around it.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Reading earlier posts by saq, seemed that I should start out mid 60's and ramp up quickly and hold at 82 or so. Maybe I misread, but not going to read through the whole thread again. I will say that fermentation, though strong, is definitely slowing a bit today so you may be onto something...I take good notes though and should get better at this over time. Will see how this turns out and if it has issues will ramp the temps up more slowly. I have not applied heat, just let it rise and then wrapped a blanket around it.

Yes, that's what saq had initially recommended, and that's exactly the way I fermented it - it worked out great. Since then, CSI has done a lot of tests, and he recommends a slower ramp-up. Either way works, but the slower ramp-up might lead to better results.

 

[jtp137]

Reading earlier posts by saq, seemed that I should start out mid 60's and ramp up quickly and hold at 82 or so. Maybe I misread, but not going to read through the whole thread again. I will say that fermentation, though strong, is definitely slowing a bit today so you may be onto something...I take good notes though and should get better at this over time. Will see how this turns out and if it has issues will ramp the temps up more slowly. I have not applied heat, just let it rise and then wrapped a blanket around it.

You might be ok I would just be worried about fusel alcohol I on the other hand cant get this beer to ferment down with a slow ramp from mid 60's to the 80's over a week. keep us posted on the gravity I may try what you did next if it doesn't taste like hot alcohol i am pretty sensitive to it instant headache

 

[stonebrewer]

Will do on the gravity! I am still getting CO2 at a good clip...expecting a big slow down tomorrow or FRI. Luckily we ate all the apples my wife put in my lagering freezer so I can plop the fermenter in and set it at 50 and let it condition for as long as it wants...or until I brew another lager! I am the same way with hot alcohol...instant headache! I think this will be A-Okay though as I have many friends who brew Belgian beers all the time and almost all of those yeasts like it hot! Cheers!

 

[UCChemE05]

I'm planning to brew this tomorrow. Does this really need an extended secondary for bulk aging? I was thinking of taking primary out to just under 4 weeks and then bottle for aging to save on a transfer and simplify the process. Thanks!

 

[Kee]

I'm planning to brew this tomorrow. Does this really need an extended secondary for bulk aging? I was thinking of taking primary out to just under 4 weeks and then bottle for aging to save on a transfer and simplify the process. Thanks!

Aging in bottle works well for me. If there is any difference between the two methods it is very subtle (I've done it both ways but I only have one fermentation chamber so it's not really practical for me to do bulk aging at cool temperatures).

 

[meadowstream]

CSI, Good evening! Just saw you launched D-240 - how do you find it so far? What are the responses from brewers? What beers have you made with it where it really had made a noticeable difference? What is the difference between 180 and 240?

 

[UCChemE05]

Aging in bottle works well for me. If there is any difference between the two methods it is very subtle (I've done it both ways but I only have one fermentation chamber so it's not really practical for me to do bulk aging at cool temperatures).

Thanks for the feedback. As long as I get good attenuation, I hope to have it bottled in 3-4 weeks for the long wait.

I finished my brew yesterday; I tossed in the kraeusen from a smaller Belgian beer (1.068 OG) I brewed on Saturday which used a 3rd generation 3787. I was happy to wake up this morning to see good activity from the blowoff tube.

 

[Elkaybay]

Good day everyone,
After 2 months in the secondary, is it advised to add yeast together with the priming sugar before bottling?
I've never brewed a beer with such a high alcohol content and such a long secondary phase.
I've got some slants of 3787 ready in case repitching is needed.
Thanks for your help!

 

[user 141939]

Good day everyone,
After 2 months in the secondary, is it advised to add yeast together with the priming sugar before bottling?
I've never brewed a beer with such a high alcohol content and such a long secondary phase.
I've got some slants of 3787 ready in case repitching is needed.
Thanks for your help!

I think it is advised. At any rate I would add yeast.

 

[Kee]

Good day everyone,
After 2 months in the secondary, is it advised to add yeast together with the priming sugar before bottling?
I've never brewed a beer with such a high alcohol content and such a long secondary phase.
I've got some slants of 3787 ready in case repitching is needed.
Thanks for your help!

I always repitch now, after one batch that didn't carbonate after several months in the bottle. It's cheap insurance.

 

[stonebrewer]

You might be ok I would just be worried about fusel alcohol I on the other hand cant get this beer to ferment down with a slow ramp from mid 60's to the 80's over a week. keep us posted on the gravity I may try what you did next if it doesn't taste like hot alcohol i am pretty sensitive to it instant headache

Just got back from FLA vacation and filled a keg with 5 gallons of this and another with 2 gallons...I over did my sparge a bit and it cost me a few points of OG, but looks like all turned out well. I will secondary in the kegs and then set the freezer to 50 and try to forget what is in there for a month or so...

Ended up at 1.012-1.014, ~9.1 ABV and 7 gallons of (to be) finished beer. Had a small taster glass last night and detected no fusel alcohol, though there was definitely alcohol in the glass...a bit hot as expected with a "green" beer, though not unpleasant. Smell was fantastic! Lots of plum and raisin on the nose. Had a bit of yeast in suspension as well. I will post back tasting notes in May!

This was so good I had to open a bottle of Stickee Monkee to celebrate...delicious!

 

[jtp137]

Just got back from FLA vacation and filled a keg with 5 gallons of this and another with 2 gallons...I over did my sparge a bit and it cost me a few points of OG, but looks like all turned out well. I will secondary in the kegs and then set the freezer to 50 and try to forget what is in there for a month or so...



Ended up at 1.012-1.014, ~9.1 ABV and 7 gallons of (to be) finished beer. Had a small taster glass last night and detected no fusel alcohol, though there was definitely alcohol in the glass...a bit hot as expected with a "green" beer, though not unpleasant. Smell was fantastic! Lots of plum and raisin on the nose. Had a bit of yeast in suspension as well. I will post back tasting notes in May!



This was so good I had to open a bottle of Stickee Monkee to celebrate...delicious!

Thanks for the update think I will try this

 

[user 141939]

What does everyone do with the extra 0.5 pounds of candi syrup? I guess maybe I'll store it in a mason jar until I can figure out what to do with it.

 

[stonebrewer]

What does everyone do with the extra 0.5 pounds of candi syrup? I guess maybe I'll store it in a mason jar until I can figure out what to do with it.

I do not follow recipes that leave bits of stuff left over. I put all three pouches into the beer. The pouches do have a screw on, resealable top so you could probably store it the original container. Personally, I dumped it in the fermenter and never looked back...