Water Test Results in - Explain my hop Aroma issues?

[Hudini56]

So I am still in the infancy of understanding water chemistry. I have been reading, and trying to learn. Im not there yet. In the mean time I sent off a test sample to Ward, and received the results today. I like hops, really like hops, so I have mainly been brewing hoppy beers, to only find nothing along the lines of hop aroma. So here are my results, and would this explain my low to no hop aroma?

ph 7.6
na 8
k 3
ca 25
mg 3
CaCo3 75
NO3-N .4
SO4-S 3
CI 30
CO3 <1.0
HCO3 56
CaCO3 46

Thanks for any input. I will continue my research!

 

[ajdelange]

Lack of hops aroma means the volatile oils that lend that aroma are not present. This is either because you didn't put enough of them in (not enough hops) or put them in so early in the boil that they got driven off. The water chemisty has little to do with the volatilization of hops essential oils.

As you are just starting out I'll note that you listed CaCO3 twice. There is no CaCO3 in your water. In the first case (75) that is the total hardness in "ppm as CaCO3". The last number in the report (46) is the "total alkalinity as CaCO3". These are goofy and archaic ways of reporting hardness and alkalinity and while the former finally seems to be fading from use the latter is apparently here to stay.

 

[Hudini56]

Water chemistry will not effect hops? Or is it that water chemistry is effecting my grain profile and in turn effecting my hops? Meaning if my water profile is geared more toward a malt forward or dark beer, and I'm brewing a pale or low srm ipa, I'm getting a very malty beer profile which is over coming the hops? I think my hopping techniques are on, late addition hopping nothing before 20 min before flame out, heavy whirlpool hopping 9.ozs or.more at 170 150 130 deg, double dry hop 1st during slow ferm action and 2nd at about 7 days. For about 7 days (next change is 5 day dry hopping) last 10 gal batch had 31 ounces of hops. And I got nothing for aroma, and a hole hell.of a lot of malt character.

That being said, I'm hopeful water adjustments will help. Or maybe your right and I am doing some things wrong..

 

[whovous]

I think you want lots of sulfates to make a hop forward ale. If I am reading your report correctly, you have almost no sulfates.

 

[The_Bishop]

That's incorrect. You do not need sulfates for a 'hop forward' beer.

The original poster was referring to hop aroma issues. As AJDelange stated, either they were boiled off by too early of an addition, or there weren't enough aroma hops added. There's a third possibility; if the beer was exposed to oxygen post ferment/dry hopping via poor transfer and/or packaging practices, that will lead to a very rapid falloff of hop aroma and flavor, as well.

 

[McKnuckle]

Sulfate enhances dryness which can accentuate perception of bitterness. But it has nothing to do with hop aroma. Not that some sulfate in the 100 ppm range would hurt, of course, and the use of gypsum to do so would bump up your Calcium as well, since it's quite low at 25 ppm.

Your hop schedule sounds well more than adequate for your aroma goals. I think your mash pH is probably too high with pale beers, which some people have associated with muddled hop character. Have a look at this article:

http://www.hoptomology.com/2013/07/15/the-effect-of-ph-on-hop-character-the-results/

 

[Hudini56]

That's incorrect. You do not need sulfates for a 'hop forward' beer.

The original poster was referring to hop aroma issues. As AJDelange stated, either they were boiled off by too early of an addition, or there weren't enough aroma hops added. There's a third possibility; if the beer was exposed to oxygen post ferment/dry hopping via poor transfer and/or packaging practices, that will lead to a very rapid falloff of hop aroma and flavor, as well.

This has been my issue all along, all of what you are saying makes sense. But my hopping schedule is solid, no early additions, I stopped transfer to secondary, and I keg - my kegs are co2 purged, no its not a pressure transfer but its as isolated as I can make it, I just dont feel thats where my issue is. But then again, I ve been proven wrong before!

Appreciate all the info!

 

[mabrungard]

Water chemistry should have little effect on hop aroma. It does sound like the hopping method or quantities are holding this back.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I'm getting a very malty beer profile which is over coming the hops?
That being said, I'm hopeful water adjustments will help. Or maybe your right and I am doing some things wrong..

I would look to your mash temperature. If your beer is consistently malty, because there are too many non-fermentable sugars, your beer will mask hop aroma. Another hop aroma killer is chlorine and/or chloramine in your brewing water.

The best 'carrier' for hop bitterness and aroma is a thinner drier beer, not a malty sweet one.

During the mash, alpha amylase enzymes break down starches into glucose (dextrins), producing non-fermentable sugars that add fullness and body to beer. The optimal temperature range for the alpha amylase enzyme is between 145°F to 158°F, too high a mash temperature could be your issue.

Although the optimal pH range for the alpha amylase enzyme is between 5.3 to 5.8, a mash pH outside of this range would not be the sole cause of your problem.

In the mash the beta amylase enzyme breaks down starches into maltose, producing highly fermentable sugars just perfect for a thinner drier beer. The optimal temperature range for the beta amylase enzyme is between 131°F to 149°F, they prefer a lower mash temperature.

Again, even though the optimal pH range for the beta amylase enzyme is between 5.0 to 5.6, a mash pH outside of this range would not cause the problem as you have described it.

 

[Hudini56]

I would look to your mash temperature. If your beer is consistently malty, because there are too many non-fermentable sugars, your beer will mask hop aroma. Another hop aroma killer is chlorine and/or chloramine in your brewing water.

The best 'carrier' for hop bitterness and aroma is a thinner drier beer, not a malty sweet one.

During the mash, alpha amylase enzymes break down starches into glucose (dextrins), producing non-fermentable sugars that add fullness and body to beer. The optimal temperature range for the alpha amylase enzyme is between 145°F to 158°F, too high a mash temperature could be your issue.

Although the optimal pH range for the alpha amylase enzyme is between 5.3 to 5.8, a mash pH outside of this range would not be the sole not cause of your problem.

In the mash the beta amylase enzyme breaks down starches into maltose, producing highly fermentable sugars just perfect for a thinner drier beer. The optimal temperature range for the beta amylase enzyme is between 131°F to 149°F, they prefer a lower mash temperature.

Again, even though the optimal pH range for the beta amylase enzyme is between 5.0 to 5.6, a mash pH outside of this range would not cause the problem as you have described it.

Now knowing my ph and other water results, I think I can move forward and make adjustments. I have been mashing high 155-156 - I guess my thought was trying to finish with a higher FG 15-18 or so, with the thought this would give me a fuller/fluffy body. Learning more and more everyday. Also I have been upping my carapils and white wheat to gain the same, I am not sure when/where or why I came to this conclusion. Sometimes my little pea brain thinks things that are not necessarily true. Trial an error. Getting a little tired of the error part! Well I will keep learning, and sifting through all this info! It is an incredible help! When the weather improves some around here I will get back at it.. Going to rebrew a old batch that was "close" but not quite. Making my water adjustments, and likely some recipe adustments.. When I am getting closer to brewing time I will post the recipe for input. You guys are awesome!

 

[mabrungard]

I have been mashing high 155-156 - I guess my thought was trying to finish with a higher FG 15-18 or so, with the thought this would give me a fuller/fluffy body. Learning more and more everyday. Also I have been upping my carapils and white wheat to gain the same, I am not sure when/where or why I came to this conclusion.

I think that many of us have been through that phase. Its the curse of homebrewing...overly full and chewy beers that aren't really good...but are ours. The learning process usually gifts those with enough wisdom the ability to find a better path. You don't need the extra body. Mash in the low 150's or lower.

 

[Hudini56]

Brewing tomorrow. First attempt with water adjustments. I used beersmith water calc and Bru N Water. I like bru n water. I believe I have everything input correctly. Here is what I have for a profile after adjustments.

Calcium - 124ppm
Mag - 59
Sodium - 4
Sulfate - 329
Chloride - 141 (too high) I think? What can I do?
Bicarbonate - 28
pH - 5.29

I am using 50% distilled water. Gypsum, calcium chloride, magniesium chloride, epsom salt.

Edited to add -

I see if I remove using Mag Chloride I can get my chloride down to 57ppm. However my pH raises ever so slightly to 5.34
Also my mag level drops of course to 28ppm

Acceptable?

 

[McKnuckle]

My suggestion:

Extremely high SO4 and (especially) Mg for many people's tastes. Get rid of the Epsom salts entirely if you are adding them, which will lower both. Reduce CaCl as well til Cl is at least under 100. Aim for a pH of 5.4.

[Edit: I see you have Epsom and MgCl - I'd ditch both. Use gypsum and CaCl only for your adjustments.]

 

[Hudini56]

Ok, so I tried your suggestion and heres what I have now..

Calcium 137
Mag 2
Sodium 4
Sulfate 189
Chloride 99
Bocarb 28
pH 5.37

This is using only Gypsum and CaCi

 

[mx222]

Ok, so I tried your suggestion and heres what I have now..

Calcium 137
Mag 2
Sodium 4
Sulfate 189
Chloride 99
Bocarb 28
pH 5.37

This is using only Gypsum and CaCi

Hudini,
I know this is an old thread but I’m wondering how this worked out. I’m having the same issues. Big hop bill, think I’m doing everything right but very little aroma. Wondering if you ended up figuring out what the issue was.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

It would be helpful to include your recipe in future posts. Grain selections and amounts go hand in hand when predicting a water profile. Another thing to consider is the interaction of yeast and hops and how they affect hop flavor and aroma.

 

[ajdelange]

Guess it's time to reiterate the main conclusion of the thread which is that water chemistry, while it does effect extraction of bittering principle and the way in which bitterness is perceived, doesn't have much, if any, influence on hop flavor or aroma.

 

[couchsending]

Lack of Hop aroma is all Oxygen based.

 

[redbone]

This topic is something I've been researching for the past few days. We're brewing a pretty large ipa tomorrow and according to our Ward water report and putting it into Beersmith, it's fairly balanced with the exception of slightly low MG and SO4. We've struggled quite a bit in recent years since just going to filtered tap water, whereas in the past I use to do smaller batches and used bought spring water and/or DI water. My memory *could* be wrong, but I feel like the aroma and teeth punch from hops was bigger back then.

Here is my water and the adjustments that I'm thinking about making all done up in BS2. The target profile was what I found someone posted RR Pliny to be.

As you can see, we have hard water. It's actually pretty close to Munich. Yet... Munich isn't known for hop forward beers

I see it was mentioned above that SO4 has nothing to do with hop aroma. I'm confused about this because I thought that Sulfates were a large carrier of aroma. I know during fermentation that most will get carried off, but residual ones should be a big carrier of hop aroma after carbonated and then serving. Is this the wrong thinking?

Beyond the bitter component, I thought that ratio of Sulfate/Chloride above a 1.0 would accentuate hops in every way (bitter, flavor, and aroma) up to whatever the boundary is before it just gets too harsh. No?

 

[couchsending]

I really don't think water chemistry has a huge affect on hop aroma. Some but not a ton.

How are you adjusting for all that alkalinity?

 

[mabrungard]

The ratio is almost meaningless. It is the total concentrations of Cl and SO4 that actually matter. Your addition of epsom salt is a good way to boost the SO4 since your water needs no more Ca. The Mg content is appropriate for an IPA.

Personally, I prefer more SO4 than 133ppm, but your addition is a good start. I think you'll note improvement in the character of your IPAs with that bump, but you might need more. You'll need to use gypsum for extra SO4 since you've pushed Mg high enough.

 

[redbone]

The ratio is almost meaningless. It is the total concentrations of Cl and SO4 that actually matter. Your addition of epsom salt is a good way to boost the SO4 since your water needs no more Ca. The Mg content is appropriate for an IPA.

Personally, I prefer more SO4 than 133ppm, but your addition is a good start. I think you'll note improvement in the character of your IPAs with that bump, but you might need more. You'll need to use gypsum for extra SO4 since you've pushed Mg high enough.

Martin, thank you again for your response. This whole thread is kind of the reason for the other thread I have going on that you answered on. I hope I didn't detract from the original posters questions. It will be interesting to see if this IIPA is better ("better" as in aroma and flavor) than we've brewed in a while. Lots of detailed efforts have been given to this brew.