Water Salts & Secondary Storage

[SourLover]

I have two questions that I’m hoping some people can help me out with.

I’m going to start brewing some sour base beers this weekend. My goal, and a lofty one it is, would be to brew one 5 gallon batch every 4-6 weeks until I get enough different beers to blend/play with. My first 5 gallon batch will be a golden sour.

The first question is regarding water salts. I’ve done my fair share of research on this, but due to my newness, I’m looking for a confirmation or comments. This first batch will be 100% distilled water. Future batches will be with my own R/O water (100%). For golden sours I plan on adding 0.75 grams of Gypsum, and 1.75 grams of Calcium Chloride to my 12-1/2 quarts of strike water. These are the only water salts I plan on using. Are my calculations correct? Any suggestions?

The second question is regarding secondary storage. After primary fermentation is completed rather than rack over to a glass carboy as a secondary I’m wondering if I can do a closed transfer over to a 5 gallon keg for secondary. My thoughts are; that it will be exposed to less oxygen, I don’t need to worry about watching an air lock, and it will be much easier to pull samples off to check progress. Every few weeks I figure I’d just pull the relief valve to let off any CO2. Is this an option? What are the positives and negatives of this method?

Any help is appreciated.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Are my calculations correct? Any suggestions?

55 ppm calcium (approximate)
35 ppm sulfate
71 ppm chloride (approximate)

Sounds good to me. You should add an equal concentration to your strike water. Adjust mash pH if needed; likely it's not needed.

The second question is regarding secondary storage.

I recommend leaving the beer in an air-tight plastic primary with spigot for the entire fermentation and aging period.
Brett needs micro-oxygenation to develop flavor, otherwise the beer may be fairly bland.

S-shaped airlocks do not dry out quickly.

 

[SourLover]

Sounds good to me. You should add an equal concentration to your strike water. Adjust mash pH if needed; likely it's not needed.

I'm assuming when you said "strike", you meant "sparge"? If I'm understanding correctly, I'd adjust both my strike and sparge water to the levels mentioned. I was a little confused on additions to the sparge water when I used the calculators initially, so your information is very helpful.

I recommend leaving the beer in an air-tight plastic primary with spigot for the entire fermentation and aging period.
Brett needs micro-oxygenation to develop flavor, otherwise the beer may be fairly bland.

Any suggestion on a plastic fermenter? I see that Speidel has some, Better Bottle has some ported ones, and Northern Brewer has their siphonless Big Mouth Bubblers. Is one better than the other, or did I miss a brand that is perhaps better than these three? Also, do you use 5 gallon or 6 gallon?

 

[brownni5]

I've got a golden sour that's nearing a year old that I just transferred to a keg - it was in a bigmouth bubbler (no spigot) prior to that. I wouldn't have transferred, but I wanted to blend some of it into another beer and didn't want quite the headspace that the original carboy would've provided - into a keg it went.

I agree with the airlocks - I'm slowly switching to all s-shaped.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm assuming when you said "strike", you meant "sparge"?

Yes. Brain fart. Sorry.

I've tried a few different water chemistry calculators and recently I've been using Mash Made Easy. You might want to give it a try.

Any suggestion on a plastic fermenter?

I highly recommend Fermonsters.
Compared to competitors, they are PET (which is best IMO), and they have threaded lids with a gasket, wide mouth, and smooth walls for easier cleaning.
I have about a dozen Fermonsters at this point. I get them from MoreBeer and use the "sediment block" spigot that rotates. I also have the lid tool and a couple carrying straps.

I typically use the 6 gallon size for a 5.5 gallon batch for long-term sours, and a blow-off tube during the primary fermentation.

I find that the Brett flavor peaks around 5-8 months with a traditional pitch in these vessels. YMMV.

 

[SourLover]

I highly recommend Fermonsters.
Compared to competitors, they are PET (which is best IMO), and they have threaded lids with a gasket, wide mouth, and smooth walls for easier cleaning.
I have about a dozen Fermonsters at this point. I get them from MoreBeer and use the "sediment block" spigot that rotates. I also have the lid tool and a couple carrying straps.

Thanks for the information on this. I have seen these before and forgotten about them. They look much easier to clean that any of the others I mentioned, and the lid seems great. Now, if I can get up to twelve of them that should make for one solid blending program.

I typically use the 6 gallon size for a 5.5 gallon batch for long-term sours, and a blow-off tube during the primary fermentation.

This seems to be the right size for me, however I am not keen on the blow-off tube because where I keep all of the brewing stuff is not my primary place, and most of the time I'm not there during the active fermentation stage. I'd prefer not to have to rack over to a secondary, so I've got to do some thinking on the blow-off tube set up.
I'm assuming you haven't have any head space issues only having 5.5 gallons in the 6 gallon Fermonster?

I agree with the airlocks - I'm slowly switching to all s-shaped.

I actually have several of these, but haven't used them yet. I will use one for the first time with this new batch.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'd prefer not to have to rack over to a secondary, so I've got to do some thinking on the blow-off tube set up.

I don't rack. I use a blow off tube during primary fermentation so it doesn't create a mess if there's too much kräusen for the limited headspace. Then I switch it to an airlock when the kräusen dies down. I add a little bit of oak cubes at that point too. The secondary fermentation occurs in the same vessel.

Do you have concerns about this? For the blow off you just need some 5/16" x couple feet of vinyl tubing and a beer bottle with a couple inches in sanitizer. Then to switch you just need the airlock, a spray bottle of sanitizer, and maybe a paper towel.
Tips:
Cut the vinyl tubing at an angle to make it easy to insert through the bung.
I highly recommend using Star San since it does not lose effectiveness like other sanitizers.

BTW, where I keep my long-term sours holds pretty steady ambient temp of 70-72°F, and I let them free-rise during primary, usually up to around 76-78°F.

I'm assuming you haven't have any head space issues only having 5.5 gallons in the 6 gallon Fermonster?

The low headspace is mitigated with the blow off tube during primary. If you're asking about that being too much during aging... Nope. I just recently bottled a 17 month old Lambic and there's no acetic acid whatsoever.

Cheers

 

[SourLover]

Do you have concerns about this? For the blow off you just need some 5/16" x couple feet of vinyl tubing and a beer bottle with a couple inches in sanitizer. Then to switch you just need the airlock, a spray bottle of sanitizer, and maybe a paper towel.

I was thinking larger diameter vinyl tubing straight into the #10 size hole in the lid. I never even considered smaller tubing through the bung. With that being known I have no concerns. Star San is my preferred sanitizer, and if there's one thing I'm anal about it is making sure everything is sanitized.

If you're asking about that being too much during aging... Nope.

That's what I was asking about, and that's great news.

 

[SourLover]

I figured I'd come back to this thread since it is the same beer. Brew day couldn't have come off any better, but now I have a few other questions that I'm hoping people can chime in on.

Question #1: I know we don't rack beer or use secondaries, but I didn't get my Fermonster's that I ordered until after brew day. Beer is currently in a 6.5 gallon glass carboy. I plan on moving it over to one of the Fermonster's at the same time as I add the Brett. I think it needs to be moved as it will be easier to sample/test as it progresses along. My first thought was to fill the Fermonster with Star San and use CO2 to push it out of the racking cane. I then thought why can't I just put CO2 into the top slowly and let the Star San drain out the bottom spigot. Doesn't either accomplish what I want, which is a Fermonster full of CO2?

Question #2: I'm going to do a 1 liter 1.030 starter for my WLP650 Brettanomyces bruxellensis, which is a little past the date on the package. I brew at my part time home, so I'm on a limited time schedule to do this. I'll describe my plan and hopefully people can chime in with some advice. I think I have two options.
Option #1: On Saturday at noon I'll make the starter and pitch the WLP650. This will stay on a stir plate for +/- 24 hours, at which point I'll pull it off the starter and place it in my fridge. I'll give it about 6 hours or so to settle out, at which time I'll decant off the spent wort, give it a bit to come up to room temperature, and pitch it into the Fermonster over the top of the newly racked beer.
Option #2: On Saturday at noon I'll make the starter and pitch the WLP650. This will stay on a stir plate for +/- 32 hours, at which point I'll pull it off the starter and place it in my fridge. I'll give it about 12 hours or so to settle out, at which time I'll decant off the spent wort, give it a bit to come up to room temperature, and pitch it into the Fermonster over the top of the beer that was racked the afternoon before.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Question #1: I know we don't rack beer or use secondaries, but I didn't get my Fermonster's that I ordered until after brew day. Beer is currently in a 6.5 gallon glass carboy. I plan on moving it over to one of the Fermonster's at the same time as I add the Brett. I think it needs to be moved as it will be easier to sample/test as it progresses along. My first thought was to fill the Fermonster with Star San and use CO2 to push it out of the racking cane. I then thought why can't I just put CO2 into the top slowly and let the Star San drain out the bottom spigot. Doesn't either accomplish what I want, which is a Fermonster full of CO2?

It's currently fermenting and you now have your Fermonster? I would transfer it immediately without purging. The active yeast will purge oxygen.

Question #2: I'm going to do a 1 liter 1.030 starter for my WLP650 Brettanomyces bruxellensis, which is a little past the date on the package. I brew at my part time home, so I'm on a limited time schedule to do this. I'll describe my plan and hopefully people can chime in with some advice.

I recommend Option #3: Do not make a starter for the Brett. There's absolutely no point. (see http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Brettanomyces#Using_Brettanomyces.)

Cheers!

 

[SourLover]

It's currently fermenting and you now have your Fermonster? I would transfer it immediately without purging. The active yeast will purge oxygen.[/QUOT

Oh my gosh. Sometimes there is a very simple solution. I didn't even think of that. It was fermenting away like no tomorrow last Saturday and I could have easily transferred it. I will just transfer it over this Saturday then. I'm assuming there will still be some active fermentation. When I left Monday morning I was getting a bubble every 3-4 seconds.

I recommend Option #3: Do not make a starter for the Brett. There's absolutely no point. (see

Thanks for the link. I was reading the Brettanomyces chapter in Michael Tonsmeire's book last night, and it had some different information, but neither was anything like my two options. Your link helps answer my question. I always forget to check their wiki.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Oh my gosh. Sometimes there is a very simple solution. I didn't even think of that. It was fermenting away like no tomorrow last Saturday and I could have easily transferred it. I will just transfer it over this Saturday then. I'm assuming there will still be some active fermentation. When I left Monday morning I was getting a bubble every 3-4 seconds.

Sounds like it's already finished. I would suggest just blowing some CO2 into the headspace after transferring. Closed transfer with purge is unnecessary and overkill in my opinion for this situation. Some oxygen won't kill the beer.