Water report help!

[dkeller12]

So I wanted to get more information about my water report, but don't really know what to look for, so I thought I may get some insight into it from some more experienced water adjusting brewers. Any info you may give me to help me learn this new topic would be greatly appreciated.


PINELLAS COUNTY UTILITIES
WATER & SEWER DEPARTMENT
Water Quality Assessment Project - Year 2014
Analyte Lab Results (mg/L)
Calcium 78.30
Magnesium 6.42
Potassium 0.05
Carbonate 0.00
Bicarbonate 160
Chloride 33.75
Iron 0.045
Sulfate 87.75
Sodium 22.2
Nitrate 0.21
pH 7.83
Total Hardness 220
Total Alkalinity 160
Total Phosphorus 0.33


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[mabrungard]

It's not terrible water, but it definitely requires acidification to neutralize that fairly high alkalinity. There is something wrong with the report since the bicarbonate content and total alkalinity cannot have the same value. Better check on that. You can learn more about what you are looking at in this report by reading the Water Knowledge page on the Bru'n Water site.

Enjoy!

 

[Happywanderer]

I agree that it isn't terrible water.

Check out brewer's friend. It has information on water profiles.

Your sodium is a tad higher than I like, but well within range of being safe.

Your calcium level is great.

Your sulfates are about 3 times your chlorides (2.6 times), so your good for making nice pale ales and more bitter style beers.

Actually - your pH level is just fine at 7.8. Depending on grist bill (grain amounts/types) you wont have to touch your pH at all... However, for a standard pale ale recipe, your pH will be a tad high (roughly 5.7). So you might want to get a pH meter (or test strips) and some phosphoric acid (just amazon for food grade phosphoric acid).

 

[dkeller12]

Thanks for the thoughts. So much to learn now that I have stepped up from extract and partial mash brewing.

 

[cjgenever]

Careful with the phosphoric. It will precipitate out some calcium. Lactic will not affect the dissolved solids but must be used conservatively due to flavor.

 

[mabrungard]

A brewer NEVER has to worry about precipitating excess calcium out of their water with phosphoric acid use. The necessity of calcium in brewing water is almost a MYTH. Lager yeast need no calcium in the brewing water and ale yeast need calcium only to the degree needed to get the yeast to floc out of suspension in the timely manner. The malt infuses into the wort ALL the calcium that yeast need for any nutritional requirements. Yeast actually have extremely little need or use for calcium (excepting for that flocculation performance). Lager yeast do not need calcium at all since the lagering process eventually clears the beer.

 

[dkeller12]

A brewer NEVER has to worry about precipitating excess calcium out of their water with phosphoric acid use. The necessity of calcium in brewing water is almost a MYTH. Lager yeast need no calcium in the brewing water and ale yeast need calcium only to the degree needed to get the yeast to floc out of suspension in the timely manner. The malt infuses into the wort ALL the calcium that yeast need for any nutritional requirements. Yeast actually have extremely little need or use for calcium (excepting for that flocculation performance). Lager yeast do not need calcium at all since the lagering process eventually clears the beer.

So is phosphoric acid the best way to correct the water or are there other options?

 

[Agate]

Pre-boiling the water works great, but it's a PITA. I've been experimenting with more and more phosphoric acid to see if it gets noticeable at some point, as my water is pretty high in bicarbonates, but so far it also has worked really really well.

 

[dkeller12]

Pre-boiling the water works great, but it's a PITA. I've been experimenting with more and more phosphoric acid to see if it gets noticeable at some point, as my water is pretty high in bicarbonates, but so far it also has worked really really well.

How long do you pre-boil the water for? Is it just bringing it to a boil or do you have maintain a boil for a specific period of time?

 

[Agate]

15 minutes... Martin Brungard has an awesome write-up in the Bru'n Water water knowledge section. Not to speak for him, since he's already contributing to the thread, but he provides equations for calculating your post-boil bicarbonate and calcium levels.

I used this method for a Kölsch and pumpkin ale recently, and they're fantastic. Didn't know what tannins in beer tasted like until I made a beer without tannins...

 

[mabrungard]

So is phosphoric acid the best way to correct the water or are there other options?

Phosphoric is not necessarily the best. It really depends on your goals. For example, German brewing relies only on lactic acid (in the form of acid malt or saurgut) for neutralization. The lactate ion that is imparted into those German beers can be an important component of the flavor profile. You wouldn't get that nuance if you use phosphoric.

Other acids such as hydrochloric or sulfuric are also options in brewing, but they are very dangerous, fuming acids that REQUIRE great caution and care. They may not be the best choice for the casual brewer.

 

[cjgenever]

A brewer NEVER has to worry about precipitating excess calcium out of their water with phosphoric acid use. The necessity of calcium in brewing water is almost a MYTH. Lager yeast need no calcium in the brewing water and ale yeast need calcium only to the degree needed to get the yeast to floc out of suspension in the timely manner. The malt infuses into the wort ALL the calcium that yeast need for any nutritional requirements. Yeast actually have extremely little need or use for calcium (excepting for that flocculation performance). Lager yeast do not need calcium at all since the lagering process eventually clears the beer.

Palmer suggests 50ppm min to aid Flocculation. My water has 35ppm. How is it that I would NEVER have to worry about lessening my calcium?

 

[mabrungard]

Palmer suggests 50ppm min to aid Flocculation. My water has 35ppm. How is it that I would NEVER have to worry about lessening my calcium?

Because you can easily add calcium if the content isn't where you want it. While the 50 ppm target is advisable for ales, it is not for lagers. If you are not too worried about beer clarity or will be filtering the beer, then you don't need to worry about calcium content...at all.

 

[cjgenever]

Because you can easily add calcium if the content isn't where you want it. While the 50 ppm target is advisable for ales, it is not for lagers. If you are not too worried about beer clarity or will be filtering the beer, then you don't need to worry about calcium content...at all.

But if I were to be concerned with Flocculation (I am) then according to this quote you would advise that I DO concern myself with calcium. In that case, to say that a brewer should NEVER need concern themselves with precipitation of calcium is false as, per your advisement, I should replace that calcium.

Now I need to calculate how much will be precipitated as this will change the chemistry. And I will need to add back the correct calcium ion to correct for that change.

That's a lot of things to worry about for something that a brewer should NEVER need to concern themselves with.

There are many ways to get to the wanted water profile and it is easier to mess it up than get it right. I don't think it is a good idea to disregard anything when dealing with chemistry.

Would have been a lot easier to adjust ph with salts and finish up with a small amount of lactic if needed.

Btw... The driving force behind the malts ability to lower the mash ph and allow the enzymes to work is the precipitation of calcium phosphates. Since malt contributes about 2,000 ppm phosphates this reaction is limited only by the amount of dissolved calcium (paraphrased from Water, John Palmer).

Transversely, lowering the ph with phosphoric before this reaction occurs can actually reduce the malts ability to reduce alkalinity and requiring more acid followed by a rebalancing of chloride/sulfate while adding calcium.

Uhhhhg... Now my head hurts...

EDIT; wouldn't the precipitation due to phosphoric have the same effect as that from malt phosphates? If so, my previous assumption is completely wrong... sorry, foot in mouth.

 

[mabrungard]

Palmer suggests 50ppm min to aid Flocculation. My water has 35ppm. How is it that I would NEVER have to worry about lessening my calcium?

My apologies. I should have cut off your argument earlier and reassured you that your water with only 35 ppm calcium cannot produce the precipitation conditions needed to lose any calcium.

As I said, you would NEVER have to worry about calcium precipitation. For those brewers with high calcium content, they could experience calcium loss. But they are already at high levels and the loss would not be a concern.

Sorry about that!

 

[dkeller12]

There is something wrong with the report since the bicarbonate content and total alkalinity cannot have the same value.
Enjoy!

Just wanted to post a response I got regarding the issue mentioned above. This answer came from the water company:
Total Alkalinity is the combination of bicarbonate, carbonate and hydroxide.* In most natural waters the levels of carbonate and hydroxide are extremely low or non-existent, resulting in the fact that Total Alkalinity is the result of bicarbonate.* And if you refer to the chart that was previously sent to you, please note the bicarbonate level is 160 mg/L and the carbonate level is 0.00 mg/L.* So the Total Alkalinity is 160 mg/L.

 

[mabrungard]

Thank you for the clarification. It does point out that the water report is presenting the bicarbonate content (as CaCO3) instead of as its native ion concentration. The original post does not provide that information. However to anyone using the information in the report, if you assume that all the alkalinity is due to bicarbonate content, that bicarbonate content is about 195 ppm (as bicarbonate).

 

[dkeller12]

Thank you for the clarification. It does point out that the water report is presenting the bicarbonate content (as CaCO3) instead of as its native ion concentration. The original post does not provide that information. However to anyone using the information in the report, if you assume that all the alkalinity is due to bicarbonate content, that bicarbonate content is about 195 ppm (as bicarbonate).

Can you clarify this a little more? How did you arrive at the 195 ppm? I am trying to learn water chemistry and every bit helps.

Love your website by the way, great information.


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[mabrungard]

Sure!

The first step is to convert the (as CaCO3) back into its milliequivalents form: 160 mg/L divided by 50 mg/L per milliequivalent (for CaCO3) = 3.2 meq

The next step is to convert the milliequivalents into bicarbonate concentration: 3.2 meq x 61 mg/L per milliequivalent (for HCO3-) = 195.2 mg/L

The short cut is: multiply the alkalinity value expressed as CaCO3, by 1.22 to calculate the bicarbonate content.

 

[dkeller12]

Thanks for showing me the calculations. So when entering the bicarbonate into beersmith or your water spreadsheet I should be using 195.2 mg/L and not the original 160 they first provided, is that correct?

 

[mabrungard]

If the program is asking for alkalinity, then the 160 ppm (as CaCO3) is appropriate. If it asks for the bicarbonate ion concentration, then the 195 ppm (mg/L) result is the correct input.