Water pH

[LaurenMc199]

Has anyone played with water pH?! I have a machine that allows me to make water at almost any pH... Alkaline drinking water (8-9.5), Clean water (7), or even acidic (5.5-6.5). I know that mash pH is a variable, but just looking for insight if anyone has experimented and how!

 

[auburntsts]

Umm yeah. There's a whole sub-Forum devoted to the subject -- look under "Brew Science" down towards the bottom of the Home Beer Brewing Section of the HBT forums main page. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/forums/brew-science.128/ Hours upon hours worth of reading.

 

[bitteritdown]

What is this machine you speak of?

 

[mitchnicholas]

I’m also interested in such a machine. Please don’t keep us in the dark on this.

 

[Dcpcooks]

You’ll want to play around with some form of software that allows you to estimate the grain bill impact on the mash ph. You could estimate your mash ph and then dial in your water ph to hit your target ph of the mash.

As said above you’ll want to look at the brew science page to get a feel for where to start. My hunch is you could substitute your “machine water” for acid additions to your mash. Keep in mind that water ph isn’t necessarily your goal, mash ph is your primary concern.

 

[Denny]

Water pH doesn't really matter. Mash pH does.

 

[bitteritdown]

Are you referring to hydroponics or swimming pool ph adjustment systems?

https://heavygardens.com/bluelab-ph...MI3IbZqtaA2AIViY2zCh1OgQjLEAQYAiABEgKcF_D_BwE

Not sure what chemicals and the quality of the chemicals used in their pH up/down solutions. Probably not food grade stuff.

There are viable methods which adjust strike water pH to the desired mash pH and then making up any difference but I'd venture to guess that's not how most people approach the mash pH problem.

 

[LaurenMc199]

Awesome! Thank you for that link! That is really what I was looking for!

The here is a link to the machine I have. I have been using one for years for everyday use. https://www.enagic.com/?c=product-comparison

 

[bitteritdown]

Well just to be clear, I'm not recommending that you use or purchase any of these machines or their solutions.

Kangen water machines are known to be a scam and add no value to brewing.

Get yourself a good RO/DI filter system with a holding tank from a reputable dealer. Add your own water salts to build the water you need for mashing/sparging.

 

[LaurenMc199]

I will start playing with other alternatives as well as using this water and I will report back! =) I have only had great success so far while brewing, but I am still rather new so I will make sure I can back that up.

As for the machine itself, I am blown away with the quality and the benefits of alkaline water that I have noticed.

 

[chris000]

Are you trying to sell us something?

 

[Biscuits]

Like stated above, mash pH is the real concern. If this machine can alter your water to hit a specific pH so that when you add your grist it will hit a certain mash pH, that is great. Although, to me, I think using RO water or knowing your household water in conjunction with Bru'n Water is going to be just as good if not better...especially if there is a time factor when using this machine. How long would it take to adjust, say 10 gallons, of water to a specific pH?

 

[IslandLizard]

Water pH doesn't really matter. Mash pH does.

... and in that context, the concentration of dissolved ions important in brewing water, such as Ca++, Mg++, Na+, Cl-, SO4--, HCO3-, CO3--.
Then most others we don't want at all, or some only as trace elements.

Make sure you know and understand what your machine adds (and removes) from your domestic drinking water.

Can that machine really deliver 8-9 gallons of brewing water at a reasonable cost in a reasonable time?

 

[bitteritdown]

I will start playing with other alternatives as well as using this water and I will report back! =) I have only had great success so far while brewing, but I am still rather new so I will make sure I can back that up.

As for the machine itself, I am blown away with the quality and the benefits of alkaline water that I have noticed.

You're trying to sell a machine that makes alkaline drinking water to a bunch of brewers who are trying to neutralize alkalinity?

Do yourself a favor if you're involved in the pyramid scheme/scam/fraud that is Kangen and get out. Please don't push that stuff here.

If you've been sold one of these machines and really want to use it for brewing then you're headed down the wrong path as a RO/DI machine would serve the purpose much better or get your tap water tested by Ward Labs and go from there.

 

[Yooper]

Awesome! Thank you for that link! That is really what I was looking for!

The here is a link to the machine I have. I have been using one for years for everyday use. https://www.enagic.com/?c=product-comparison

That is NOT suited to brewing water at all, and I would argue that it is likely of no benefit to anyone in any setting.

Brewers want to have a low bicarbonate and lower mineralization water- RO water is ideal for brewing or distilled water. You definitely want to stay away from ANY water that has stuff added to it, even if it's "healthy" hydrogen.

I'm not sure if you're for real, or a shill for a pyramid scheming company. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and tell you that these water machines are not something that will give you decent brewing water. An RO system, like for a saltwater aquarium, certainly will.

 

[LaurenMc199]

Hey! I am really not trying to sell anything here! I am not part of that company or pyramid scheme or anything... It is just a machine that I have and asked a simple question of water pH because as a new brewer I am just trying to learn to make the best possible beer that I can make. I feel as if water is a very important part of brewing and want to use the best tools, but I also want to experiment with anything that I have available.

This water has just saved me time and money since it is available to me, but I am looking forward to trying all of these suggestions!

 

[SEndorf]

No worries.
The machine you are looking at is contrary to brewing. The Ph of your water is irrelevant. The alkaline buffering capacity is what's important. Like mentioned above, I'd spend some time in the brewing science section to learn more about it. Keyword - buffering. You do not want alkaline water for brewing.

 

[chris000]

while water is definitely an important topic, it is not priority number one.
you mention you are new to brewing, so before getting into the water topic, make sure you have a solid control over your yeast(s) and their fermentation first!

 

[The_Bishop]

Since everyone here is being borderline 'too nice', I'll be that guy and say it:

Those things are a complete ripoff, and I seriously doubt that buying a $2400 'water machine' has saved you anything. On the odds that you're not a shill for that company, I'll recommend that you quit wasting money on any further use of that wallet-emptying hunk of garbage and replace it with a decent quality RO system.

Any time something talks about 'altering your body's pH' or 'alkaline water', put your hand on your wallet and get as far away from them as you can.

 

[LaurenMc199]

Maybe I will just deleted this thread. I apologize to anyone who thinks I was selling something. I received my machine as a gift. I was really just curious about learning more about water and brewing with the resources that I have available to me, but looks like this isn't the best place to ask honest questions. I am sorry. Thank you to the people who pointed me into the right direction to start experimenting.

 

[chris000]

....
, but looks like this isn't the best place to ask honest questions.....

I understand that this might not be what you were looking for (regardless if you are a new homebrewer or a sales person), but you did receive honest feedback!

and if you want to show you were not set out to sell something, just stick around please!

 

[IslandLizard]

What kind of beers have you brewed so far? What's your next planned brew? An all grain one?

 

[LaurenMc199]

What kind of beers have you brewed so far? What's your next planned brew? An all grain one?

I did about 5 different extract kits, some of them a few times to see if I could make them better. Now I have switched to All Grain and I have done a Milk Stout, a Bock, and a Porter. So far my favorite that I have Brewed was the Milk Stout because we soaked Vanilla beans in Jack Daniels and put them in the secondary. It turned out awesome! I definitely want to repeat that one.

 

[IslandLizard]

I did about 5 different extract kits, some of them a few times to see if I could make them better. Now I have switched to All Grain and I have done a Milk Stout, a Bock, and a Porter. So far my favorite that I have Brewed was the Milk Stout because we soaked Vanilla beans in Jack Daniels and put them in the secondary. It turned out awesome! I definitely want to repeat that one.

Bourbon and vanilla are great flavors in a (sweet) Stout. Next time think about also adding some (bourbon) soaked oak cubes or a 2" piece of an oak spiral.

Now darker beers are much more forgiving when it comes to water chemistry.
For those all grain brews, did you use regular tap water or water from your machine?

If you've read some of the Brew Science forum, you probably now know why. Higher alkalinity in brewing water is compensated by the higher acidity of the darker malts, while an abundance of darker flavors cover up a lot of subtleties you may miss if it were much lighter. The Bock is definitely a good test for your water (and fermentation temps).

 

[LaurenMc199]

Bourbon and vanilla are great flavors in a (sweet) Stout. Next time think about also adding some (bourbon) soaked oak cubes or a 2" piece of an oak spiral.

Now darker beers are much more forgiving when it comes to water chemistry.
For those all grain brews, did you use regular tap water or water from your machine?

If you've read some of the Brew Science forum, you probably now know why. Higher alkalinity in brewing water is compensated by the higher acidity of the darker malts, while an abundance of darker flavors cover up a lot of subtleties you may miss if it were much lighter. The Bock is definitely a good test for your water (and fermentation temps).

Very Interesting. For every batch so far, I have used my machine since it is what I have at my house. I knew that alkalinity was not a friend so I have stayed in neutral to slightly acidic pH for my water (6.5 7pH). I do have a cooler with a temperature regulator for fermentation so I try to control that as much as possible.

Thank you

 

[IslandLizard]

Very Interesting. For every batch so far, I have used my machine since it is what I have at my house. I knew that alkalinity was not a friend so I have stayed in neutral to slightly acidic pH for my water (6.5 7pH). I do have a cooler with a temperature regulator for fermentation so I try to control that as much as possible.

Thank you

You also had the choice to use regular tap water, or RO water from your supermarket/Walmart/etc., instead.
So your machine easily delivers 7-8 gallons of "treated" water needed for a 5 gallon batch of AG beer?

One thing we certainly don't want in brewing water is the chlorine or chloramines the water company adds to keep their water sanitary until it flows from your faucet. Your machine "may" filter that out. Or not... In that case use a good pinch of Potassium Metabisulfite or a piece of a Campden tablet (all available at your brew store). If you're on a (private) well, well, chlorine or chloramines won't be an issue, but things can get much more complicated.

Yes! Temperature regulation during fermentation is THE road to good and better beer!

Now how much does it cost you for each gallon you dispense from your machine? Just a ballpark, I'm curious?
I know my refrigerator has a (small) carbon filter in the bottom that asks to be replaced every so many gallons. I've ignored that for over 7 years for obvious reasons. I'm still on the original cartridge.

 

[bitteritdown]

Try setting your machine to produce water in the 5.2-5.4 pH range when making extract beers, as long as it neutralizes the alkalinity you should notice an improvement in your beers.

This argument err... thread might be of interest to you:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/more-on-high-ph-with-extract-brews.639297/

 

[LaurenMc199]

I could absolutely go buy water, but I never saw the point when I could have 7-8 gallons ready to go in 5-10 minutes and it does filter out the chlorine. And I did not pay for the machine, so I could not tell you an estimate of cost per gallon. The machine is set to clean every set amount of gallons and instructions of changing filters depending on machine type and usage.