Water calculator woes

[Starrider]

Water discussions are easy to find. My problem is in the variation I am finding leaving me more confused than providing direction. I have also tried several different water calculators and the amount of additions vary by about 100%. I could be entering data or using the calculator incorrectly but if I am, I don’t know what I’m doing wrong.

I start with RO or Distilled water. The recommended target ranges for a particular style vary pretty wildly too but I know that can be personal preference. Still makes it difficult to determine where to start. For my last batch, an American Stout, I decided to dive into water chemistry a little more. After plugging my recipe into several water calculators and reading multiple articles on adjusting water, I am not sure I made good additions which brings me to my question.

Attached is a spreadsheet (image) I put together just to look at recommendations as well as the different results from the different water calculators. I did this after I brewed my batch so whatever I learn here will have to be used in the next one. I think I have all the pertinent information in the spread sheet but if I missed anything, let me know.

In a nutshell, why am I getting such different results from the different calculators and were my additions ok for the listed target?

 

[Lefou]

I typically use both the basic and advanced Brewer's Friend calculators.
It's surprising to me Beersmith recommended no carbonate additions for hardness. A "zero" level of sodium bicarbonate is expected because it will skew your water pH, but with RO water, it leaves you very little sodium and hardness to play with. I would've added the minimum sodium bicarb anyway, and added sauermalz, but that's just me.
Brewer's Friend Advanced calculator also has a field that calculates expected mash pH based on your malt ingredients, grain weight, and expected SRM.

I'm just a summer poolboy who does pH balancing and mineral adjustments as a hobby, but there are water experts who have better answers.

 

[Starrider]

I settled on Brewersfriend advanced for that batch. It had the option for salts added to mash only which the others didn't say anything either way so not sure how they were calculating.
BeerSmith surprised my on how small of additions it recommended. Also didn't care for the fact it didn't give anything for ppm levels it was targeting.

Any idea why Ez Calculator and Palmer's were giving such high ppm's compared to Brewers Friend?

You didn't say if you thought my additions were ok (other than sauermalz) but depending on which calculator I used, I could be adding way too much or too little.

 

[Lefou]

Except for the sodium bicarb, I'd pretty much agree with your salt additions with Brewer's Friend Advanced.

As for Brewer's Friend I chose it for the same reasons as you did - that, and my LBHS actually uses it, and one of the guys who worked there recommended it.
The big reason I settled with BF is because I like the flexible interface, it's accurate and works for my needs, and isn't overly complicated. An added bonus is being free. From what I've read on the HBT forums so far, being modest with additions while keeping the salts in balance (sulfate and chlorides, especially) is OK for most styles, so that's what I've been doing - that, and adding salts to my mash water because it favors my brew methods and setup. I have yet to successfully go beyond the amber bock style into darker porters and stouts, so this is a learning experience for me, too. Matter of fact, I still have to figure out why there are two "balanced" profiles in BF and how you'd apply them.

Truthfully, I've no idea why EZ Water or Palmer's calculators recommend higher salt levels. I'm not familiar with those calculators, and to be honest, I'm not a real Palmer fan nor am I interested in aping historical brews with unbalanced water.

 

[Yooper]

I'm of the mindset that pH is THE critical thing, and then the salt additions, just like with cooking, are "to taste".

So, with a stout, I'd target a mash pH of 5.5 or so. Then, because I don't want the dryness associated with sulfate I'd use come calcium chloride to get the chloride to 70 ppm , more or less. That's about all I'd do in many cases, but for a dry stout I might lower the pH a bit.

I think the reasons for the targets are because that is maybe what that water could be like in the city where the style originated for one, but we have no idea what they may have done to their water before using it.

There is no target for bicarbonate, as you don't really want it in your water. However, since for dark roasted malts, some alkalinity is desired to hit the proper mash pH in some cases so you may need some baking soda, for example. The "target" for bicarbonate is only the amount needed to get a decent mash pH- in many cases 0, and you still need to add acid to bring the mash pH into the desired range (especially when brewing a lighter colored beer).

Think of those salts as like cooking salt/seasoning. How much garlic goes in spaghetti sauce? Well, you get answers from 0 (heathens!) to 25 cloves. But for many people, the best flavor comes from a modest amount. The same is true for brewing- some people will use 300 ppm of sulfate for an IPA. Some will use 100 ppm. I like it somewhere in the middle. The targets can be helpful as a start, maybe, but the only real "correct" amount is the amount that makes the beer tastes best to you.

For me, I stick with the "less is more" philosophy until I decide that maybe a bit more is a good idea. You can't make a bad beer by using less sulfate or chloride- but you can ruin a good beer by using too much.

 

[Yooper]

. I would've added the minimum sodium bicarb anyway, and added sauermalz, but that's just me.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this one. Why would you add sauermalz to lower the mash pH, and then add baking soda to raise the mash pH?

I'm sure there is a reason, but I"m not getting the idea at all.

 

[Lefou]

Like I said, I'm still learning what ingredients go where.... I've been sticking to lighter SRM beers so far until I get the process on water down pat.

I've seen recommendations for not adding calcium carbonate to mash water for hardness because it's difficult to dissolve. Why not add a minimum of sodium bicarb for hardness?
I understand sodium bicarb in solution raises your water pH, but if the chalk is a pain to dissolve, why not substitute?

 

[Yooper]

I understand sodium bicarb in solution raises your water pH, but if the chalk is a pain to dissolve, why not substitute?

Why do you need to raise your mash pH for light beers? Even with RO water, you shouldn't have to do that.

With NaHCO3, you're adding alkalinity which is most likely NOT what you want. If you want to add hardness, calcium salts will do that. Magnesium will too, but that generally causes poor flavor.

 

[Lefou]

Oh, OK ... it's sinking in.

Calcium for hardness, and bicarb for pH adjustments. I was under the impression bicarb could be an alternative substitute contributing hardness to the mash water for DARKER beers - I've never used it for any of my lighter SRM ales.

 

[Yooper]

Oh, OK ... it's sinking in.

Calcium for hardness, and bicarb for pH adjustments. I was under the impression bicarb could be an alternative substitute contributing hardness to the mash water for DARKER beers - I've never used it for any of my lighter SRM ales.

It's not the hardness you're after there- it's for the pH adjustment.

That's why I asked why the sauermalz addition to lower the pH (great idea if needed!) and then the baking soda to raise the pH. That means they cancel each other out.

 

[Lefou]

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Starrider]

This has been a big help. I'm still trying to get my head around what all this really means and what each adjustment actually affects. Which is why I was so reliant on the calculators. If I had a reasonable target, I could use the calculator to try to dial it in. When the calculators were giving me different numbers, I was lost. I'm glad to hear there is some confidence in Brewers Friend Advanced. I think I will be using that one until I get more comfortable.