Water Adustment: Sanity Check Please

[BrewDrinkRepeat]

Screenshots of Bru'n Water and the recipe below.

Hoping to get a sanity check on my water adjustments for the rye robust porter I plan to brew on Sunday. I'm still learning about water adjustments, but this seems to make sense to me -- I'm not adding a ton of salts, the additions I'm making should bring me to my desired targets, and my calculated mash pH is 5.4. The only thing I didn't quite hit was the Sulfate : Chloride ratio, but given the style I think 1.2 will be OK.

Anyone see anything amiss here?

Thanks in advance!

BDR

12-B Robust Porter

Size: 5.5 gal
Efficiency: 64.4%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 309.64 kcal per 16.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.069 (1.048 - 1.065)
Terminal Gravity: 1.017 (1.012 - 1.016)
Color: 28.97 (22.0 - 35.0)
Alcohol: 6.87% (4.8% - 6.5%)
Bitterness: 38.1 (25.0 - 50.0)

Ingredients:
11.75 lb (67.5%) 2-Row Brewers Malt - added during mash
1.5 lb (8.6%) Munich 10L Malt - added during mash
1 lb (5.7%) Caramel Malt 40L - added during mash
.75 lb (4.3%) Chocolate Malt - added during mash
.5* lb (2.9%) American Black Patent - added during mash
1.5 lb (8.6%) Rye Flaked - added during mash
.4 lb (2.3%) Acidulated Malt - added during mash
2 oz (57.1%) East Kent Goldings (5.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60*m
.75 oz (21.4%) Fuggle (4.6%) - added during boil, boiled 15*m
.75 oz (21.4%) East Kent Goldings (5.0%) - added during boil
1 tsp Wyeast Nutrient - added during boil, boiled 10*m
1 ea Whirlfloc Tablets (Irish moss) - added during boil, boiled 10*m
1 ea Wyeast 1056 American Ale™
1 ea Clarity-Ferm (10ml) - added dry to primary fermenter

Mash @ 153ºF
Ferment @ 67ºF

 

[CyclingCraig]

My main comment would be, you are using chalk to buffer the pH from the use of the dark malts.

See if you can run out to a W-mart and pick up some Pickling Lime (Mrs Wages), it's in the canning section.

Use that instead of the chalk as tests have show the chalk is not as soluble as once thought and you don't get the buffering you would expect.

Also be conservative on the additions for bringing pH up, your water is soft and low alkalinity so you may need some. Some would even say not to add any for the first brew or do a test mash.

 

[Yooper]

Leave out the gypsum, and the chalk.

What is the projected mash pH then? Chalk is almost impossible to use correctly, as it takes extraneous measures to dissolve it.

You can add gypsum, of course but I don't like it with roasted malts as it tends to bring out the astringency of them. My preference for that beer would be to not add sulfate, but you don't have that much so it probably wouldn't matter.

 

[mabrungard]

Yeah, forget the chalk. It won't work. If you can't find pickling lime, use baking soda in the mashing water. Sulfate at low levels is OK in dark styles, but don't overdo it. If you need to add calcium, use calcium chloride.

 

[BrewDrinkRepeat]

Interesting stuff, thanks guys! Whether I use it in this batch or not, I will pick up some pickling lime before Sunday's brew session if only to have it on hand along with the rest.

Without any adjustments at all, and slightly less acidulated malt than shown above (0.15# instead of 0.4#) my calculated mash pH according to Bru'n Water is 5.4. The only reason I was looking to mess with the water is because without anything I seem to be very low in calcium (10ppm), Bicarbonate (19) and RA (7), and somewhat low in the rest.

I've brewed plenty of dark beers over the years that turned out just fine, I think my water is at least reasonably suited for them, but I'm hoping water adjustment could be the "last frontier" to really push my beers over the top.

I will admit that aside of pH, water adjustment is by far the hardest thing in brewing for me to wrap my head around. I have no science background whatsoever (I'm a graphic arts and music guy), and even though I'm reading everything I can (including but not limited to all the great posts on this forum, the Bru'n Water instructions, Kai's website and the Water book) I still feel like I'm flying by the seat of my pants when it comes to really understanding the interplay between all the possible methods to water adjustment. But I'll keep reading, and want to start experimenting but I don't want to go overboard or make obviously (to those who know better!) bad decisions.

 

[mabrungard]

Wait! You shouldn't use acid malt AND things like chalk, lime, or soda. They counteract each other. Take all the acid malt out and then see if you need to add alkalinity to raise the pH.

 

[BrewDrinkRepeat]

Wait! You shouldn't use acid malt AND things like chalk, lime, or soda. They counteract each other. Take all the acid malt out and then see if you need to add alkalinity to raise the pH.

Without the acid malt or any salt additions my pH is 5.5.

This is where I always get confused, since all of the additions serve more than one purpose (raising two different water components, plus raising or lowering pH and RA) and trying to figure out the right balance doesn't seem obvious (to me, like I said I have zero science or chemistry background!).

Pickling lime works to hit my target calcium and RA numbers, but it raises my pH to 5.7. Calcium Chloride works for pH but sends my RA way in the wrong direction. I can use a little of both to dial in my calcium and chloride amounts; is it them OK to use acid or acidulated malt to pull the pH down to 5.4? As I add lactic acid on the Water Adjustment tab it lowers my RA, acidulated malt does not, not sure if either is correct or a problem...

Sorry for what I'm sure are dumb questions!

(PS. It would be awesome to see the pH listed on the Water Adjustment tab in addition to the Mash Acidification tab, to keep from having to flip back and forth.)

 

[Yooper]

Without the acid malt or any salt additions my pH is 5.5.

This is where I always get confused, since all of the additions serve more than one purpose (raising two different water components, plus raising or lowering pH and RA) and trying to figure out the right balance doesn't seem obvious (to me, like I said I have zero science or chemistry background!).

Pickling lime works to hit my target calcium and RA numbers, but it raises my pH to 5.7. Calcium Chloride works for pH but sends my RA way in the wrong direction. I can use a little of both to dial in my calcium and chloride amounts; is it them OK to use acid or acidulated malt to pull the pH down to 5.4? As I add lactic acid on the Water Adjustment tab it lowers my RA, acidulated malt does not, not sure if either is correct or a problem...

Sorry for what I'm sure are dumb questions!

(PS. It would be awesome to see the pH listed on the Water Adjustment tab in addition to the Mash Acidification tab, to keep from having to flip back and forth.)

A mash pH of 5.5 is perfect for that beer. There is absolutely NO reason to add alkalinity (lime) to raise the pH. Ignore RA and the other "stuff". The whole purpose for the RA is to help you hit your mash pH.

You can add some calcium chloride to raise your calcium (and chloride), if you wish. A good goal is 40-50 ppm of calcium, for yeast health.

 

[BrewDrinkRepeat]

A mash pH of 5.5 is perfect for that beer. There is absolutely NO reason to add alkalinity (lime) to raise the pH. Ignore RA and the other "stuff". The whole purpose for the RA is to help you hit your mash pH.

You can add some calcium chloride to raise your calcium (and chloride), if you wish. A good goal is 40-50 ppm of calcium, for yeast health.

Oh, OK, so it's a "one way street" of sorts: if I'm hitting my target pH I can ignore the RA?

Making sure I have enough calcium is my #1 concern, since my water has so little. If I add 0.4g/gal of calcium chloride I get to 40ppm calcium, but that puts me at 71ppm chloride and my SO/Cl ratio is very low at 0.3.

I like a nice bitter bite to my robust porters, but since it's still a dark and slightly roasty beer can I just ignore the ratio Or should I add a little epsom salt (0.2g/gal) to boost my sulfate a little?

 

[CyclingCraig]

(PS. It would be awesome to see the pH listed on the Water Adjustment tab in addition to the Mash Acidification tab, to keep from having to flip back and forth.)

If you send a donation to Bru'n water you get an upgraded version and that version has the pH on both those pages

Along with a bunch of other nice features

 

[Yooper]

Oh, OK, so it's a "one way street" of sorts: if I'm hitting my target pH I can ignore the RA?

Making sure I have enough calcium is my #1 concern, since my water has so little. If I add 0.4g/gal of calcium chloride I get to 40ppm calcium, but that puts me at 71ppm chloride and my SO/Cl ratio is very low at 0.3.

I like a nice bitter bite to my robust porters, but since it's still a dark and slightly roasty beer can I just ignore the ratio Or should I add a little epsom salt (0.2g/gal) to boost my sulfate a little?

Forget you ever heard the term SO/CL ratio. Throw that term out of your vocabulary.

Here's why- say you have 10 ppm of sulfate and 20 of chloride. That's twice as much chloride as sulfate- a high ratio toward chloride. But both are so low that it's not even meaningful.

But, what if you have 150 ppm of chloride and 300 of sulfate. Ok, that's a ratio leaning toward sulfate, still 2-1, but it would make such a minerally beer that you wouldn't want to drink it.

Remember, sulfate doesn't "cancel" chloride. Adding more chloride doesn't "cancel" sulfate. Just like if you oversalt your food, adding twice as much garlic doesn't "erase" the salt. Too much is too much, no matter what the ratio is.

Instead, look at the total amounts. And in most cases, "less is more" does apply. Unless you know you love your IPAs with 300 ppm of sulfate (and I do NOT!), then start lower and work your way up to your taste. You can always add more in the next batch, but even using too little chloride (or sulfate)for your tastes will generally give you a very nice beer. Using too much will make an unpleasant beer at best, and undrinkable at worst.

To my tastes, sulfate and roast does not mix well. Darker beers can be astringent, and the dryness of the sulfate can really make it worse. But your taste may differ, of course, and so you may hear other opinions. I never heard anybody drink a stout, though, and say, "Why this beer would be so much better if it had more astringency and dryness to it!"

 

[BrewDrinkRepeat]

I definitely understand that the ratio isn't magic and will fail when the amounts are very low or far too high, but assuming that both amounts are within a reasonable range wouldn't the balance between the two have at least some impact on the flavor of the beer?

(This is another aspect of water chemistry that confounds me, there is a fair bit of conflicting information and recommendations out there. )

I'm brewing today (about to get started, in fact) and I'm going to go with 0.2g/gal of Epsom salt and 0.4g/gal of calcium chloride; this gives me 39ppm of calcium, 38.6ppm of sulfate and 71ppm of chloride (very close to the Bru'n Water targets for "black balanced"), with a calculated mash pH of 5.4. Look forward to seeing how this turns out, and how I might improve it on the next batch.

 

[ajdelange]

I definitely understand that the ratio isn't magic and will fail when the amounts are very low or far too high, but assuming that both amounts are within a reasonable range wouldn't the balance between the two have at least some impact on the flavor of the beer?

For a particular beer there is an amount, x, of sulfate ion and an amount, y, of chloride ion which will be optimum. Given that this is the case the ratio of the two: r = x/y is the optimum ratio. Given x and r one knows how to proceed. Given y and r one can also make the beer but given r alone one cannot. There are two degrees of freedom here. Statements to the effect that all one needs to do is get the ratio right are misleading in that they suggest that there is only one; that a brewer can pick any level of chloride that's handy as long as he adjusts the sulfate to r times this.

 

[BrewDrinkRepeat]

For a particular beer there is an amount, x, of sulfate ion and an amount, y, of chloride ion which will be optimum. Given that this is the case the ratio of the two: r = x/y is the optimum ration. Given x and r one knows how to proceed. Given y and r one can also make the beer but given r alone one cannot. There are two degrees of freedom here. Statements to the effect that all one needs to do is get the ratio right are misleading in that they suggest that there is only one; that a brewer can pick any level of chloride that's handy as long as he adjusts the sulfate to r times this.

Understood (one of the things I do understand, heh heh!). I was using one of the suggested water profiles from Bru'n Water (black bitter, also black balances as a comparator) as a starting point, so I had target amounts for both (and, in turn, the SO:Cl ratio), hence my comments about that. I ended up with a lower ratio, but still coming reasonably close to the target values (as calculated by the spreadsheet), and 5.4 pH.

The brewday went well; overshot my efficiency (but that's OK, as I've been working to improve the efficiency of my system anyway) but aside of that it was an easy day with great fall weather. The sweet wort tasted fantastic, hopefully it is just as well once fermented. I'll know in two weeks...