Using sucrose instead of Malt Extracr

[The forager]

Am only beginning to make the Coopers kits. Wondering if I can replace the Liquid Malt Extract with sucrose and also the carbonated drops for a teaspoon of sucrose.

 

[lumpher]

LME not only adds some body to the beer, but also adds flavor. You can, but that's replacing beer with alcoholic water. In short, don't do it. As far as using sucrose to carbonate, you can use table sugar. Many people boil some table sugar in a few ounces of water and prime with that.

 

[Kickass]

The great thing about homebrewing, you can do pretty much anything you want.

As for sucrose to replace LME: Are you asking if it’ll ferment? Yes

Are you asking if it’s a one for one flavor equivalent for LME? No

Are you asking if it’ll taste “good”? Only you will be able to determine that.

If you narrow your question down a little we can give you a more specific answer.

As for the bottling sugar, it’ll carbonate just fine IF you use the correct amount. I don’t know that amount off the top of my head.

 

[The forager]

Great thanks. I will try using table sugar and see how it tastes.

I’ll try find the measurements for the bottling.

Trial and error with both I’m guessing.

 

[McMullan]

Malt extract is a good source of nutrients for yeast cells. Sucrose isn't. Any sucrose solution requires nutrient supplements. It's easier to use malt extract with a pinch of yeast nutrient. But I suspect your aim is to increase the OG of the kit by adding sucrose, right? It's fine to do that, as long as the yeast don't become nutrient deficient.

 

[The forager]

Malt extract is a good source of nutrients for yeast cells. Sucrose isn't. Any sucrose solution requires nutrient supplements. It's easier to use malt extract with a pinch of yeast nutrient. But I suspect your aim is to increase the OG of the kit by adding sucrose, right? It's fine to do that, as long as the yeast don't become nutrient deficient.

Right yes. Ok, I didn’t add any nutrients but will give this batch a try and then use malt extract on my next batch and make the comparison. Thank you.

 

[Toxxyc]

You can use sucrose, yes. It's better to invert it first (boil it for a while with some acid), it makes less work for the yeast (yeast can't consume sucrose).

Check out a video from CraigTube who did just this test and gave feedback on it. It's not THAT bad, specially brewing in a pinch.

 

[Alan Reginato]

Initially I brewd with sucrose/inverted. I got one stalled fermentation at 1.020 when I made a grain bill with 25% of sucrose in a Strong Ale, 8% ABV. Even with a fair neutral yeast, S-33 @ 20 C, got some seriously high fusel alcohol and esters. Headache was a sure thing if you drank more than one bottle.

Also, I made a test, in this post

Adding sugar after high krausen? RIS recipe

That have some perceptions of mine about adding sugar and some nice articles.

BTW I am not using simple sugars additions anymore.

 

[McMullan]

@Toxxyc sucrose, as a product of photosynthesis, is one of the most abundant sugars in the biosphere. Most living things synthesise the enzyme invertase to hydrolyse it to glucose and fructose. Including yeast, which are the main source of purified invertase. But hydrolysing it for them makes things more efficient.

@Alan Reginato, it sounds like you might have promoted nutrient deficiency, essentially a form of under pitching. Any nutrient poor sugar additions need to be supplemented with additional nutrients, or we're effectively diluting the nutrients already present. Especially for a big beer, where high ethanol levels promote stress in the yeast cells. It's a little bit like a Formula One driver opting for bold tyres in wet conditions. He's going to struggle to stay on track let alone finish the race, regardless. By the time he crosses the finish line, assuming he does, the champagne bottles are empty and everyone's gone home.

 

[bracconiere]

i thought all a coopers kit was, WAS LME?

 

[Toxxyc]

@Toxxyc sucrose, as a product of photosynthesis, is one of the most abundant sugars in the biosphere. Most living things synthesise the enzyme invertase to hydrolyse it to glucose and fructose. Including yeast, which are the main source of purified invertase. But hydrolysing it for them makes things more efficient.

Exactly. Yeast cannot consume sucrose, being a disaccharide. It does contain the enzymes to break is down into monosaccharides though, just like we do. We also can't utilize sucrose, our bodies breaks it down into glucose and fructose, if I'm remembering this correctly, the same as yeast. (PS: Not posting this for you as I guess you know this, this is more for others reading.) Other disaccharides we commonly see in brewing is maltose and lactose, of which the former is HIGHLY fermentable and the latter isn't fermentable by our regular saccharomyces strains at all.

Now my argument is simple. If you want your yeast as happy as possible, to produce the best beer possible, you want them to do the least amount of work for the highest amount of gain. That means not letting your yeast consume sucrose, but instead doing the inversion for them. This is why I do not advocate the use of sucrose in brewing, not unless it's been inverted first. And it's not like it's hard. Dissolve in water, add a tiny bit of citric acid (or any other acid that'll do the job), boil for 20 minutes and poof, a simple invert syrup is done, that CAN ferment. Add that, and you do half the work for your yeast already. Like peeling the banana for them, or opening the wrapper on their ice creams for them. A step less, a job that's smaller, and a happier yeast cell doing the work.

 

[bruce_the_loon]

i thought all a coopers kit was, WAS LME?

They recommend adding their "Brew Enhancer" 1,2 or 3 to the pre-hopped LME to increase ABV and taste. That's mixtures of dextrose, maltodextrins and DME.

 

[McMullan]

Maltose is a disaccharide too and needs to be hydrolysed like sucrose. It's 'highly fermentable' mainly because maltose is the main fermentable carb in barley worts. It's just glucose really, like most fermentable carbs in wort. If enough viable yeast cells are pitched they consume fermentable sugars regardless. I'm an invert convert () these days, but I'm not going to object to someone adding sucrose to a kit, because I did it myself years ago and it works.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Am only beginning to make the Coopers kits. Wondering if I can replace the Liquid Malt Extract with sucrose and also the carbonated drops for a teaspoon of sucrose.

IIRC, Coopers also has discussion forums. If so, you may find people there who are actively and successfully doing what you are asking about.

That being said, HomeBrewTalk is a solid resource for home brewing without using kits or making kit modifications.

 

[The forager]

Will sucrose result in a more bitter lager?

 

[Toxxyc]

Will sucrose result in a more bitter lager?

No, but in my experience sucrose results in a sharper bite in the beer than when using dextrose, DME or invert sugar. Think of a cheap American Lite Lager, the finish of the beer typically ends up with a sharp bite. It's still there when you use dextrose (because they use corn syrup as well), but it's stronger with sucrose and I'm not a fan. It's one of the most off-putting mouthfeels in a beer I can imagine.

 

[Kickass]

Will sucrose result in a more bitter lager?

Not in my experience. Bitterness is a byproduct of hops, mostly.

 

[The forager]

Not in my experience. Bitterness is a byproduct of hops, mostly.

Thank you. I was bottling it yesterday and adding carbonation drops. It definitely tasted bitter. Hopefully it will change with the carbonation drops.

 

[Kickass]

It definitely tasted bitter. Hopefully it will change with the carbonation

Chilled, carbonated beer tastes very different than it does in its previous state.

If you do find it’s too bitter for your taste adjust the hops in your next batch. If using hopped malt extract, substituted for a portion of unhopped extract. And if all else fails, drop hopped extract altogether and start using hops to fine tune your beer to your tastes.

 

[The forager]

Chilled, carbonated beer tastes very different than it does in its previous state.

If you do find it’s too bitter for your taste adjust the hops in your next batch. If using hopped malt extract, substituted for a portion of unhopped extract. And if all else fails, drop hopped extract altogether and start using hops to fine tune your beer to your tastes.

Thank you.

 

[Kickass]

I’m not sure where you’re located but if you have a local homebrew shop LHBS or can order, with reasonable shipping, online, take a look extract with steeping grain kits. It begins to give you the ability to easily adjust recipes to your tastes.

 

[The forager]

I’m not sure where you’re located but if you have a local homebrew shop LHBS or can order, with reasonable shipping, online, take a look extract with steeping grain kits. It begins to give you the ability to easily adjust recipes to your tastes.

Based in Ireland. Will definitely check it out. Thanks a million.