unpopular question, about nutes

[bracconiere]

so it's been taking like two weeks to ferment 10 gallons of cheap juice...but i can get a batch of beer fermented in 4 days.

what nutrients would i have to add to cheap juice to get a 4 day ferment? flavor is irrelevant to me, thus the unpopularity of my question, lol

edit: ok, ok...flavor matters a little and i'm not going to use turbo yeast....

edit #2: i ok, who am i trying to kid....i just bought a pack of "fruit turbo yeast"....it says it's urea free, so i'm hoping that's where my bad memories come from....(it's just rough when you're on your last keg, know it's going to be dry in 4 days, and don't want to spend $20 on 3 gallons of store bought 4% beer...at least not when i can have 10 gallons of juice delivered to my door for $32, add 4lbs sugar and get 8%)

 

[RPh_Guy]

A mix of something with zinc (Go-Ferm, Wyeast nutrient, Servomyces, or you could use a pure zinc salt if you want to figure out the dosing), and something with nitrogen (Fermaid K or Fermaid O are good, but there are many other options) will give you a fast fermentation.
A small amount of potassium chloride (available at a grocery store as "salt substitute") would probably be helpful as well.

These are "normal" products that won't directly cause off-flavors.

 

[bracconiere]

A mix of something with zinc (Go-Ferm, Wyeast nutrient, Servomyces, or you could use a pure zinc salt if you want to figure out the dosing), and something with nitrogen (Fermaid K or Fermaid O are good, but there are many other options) will give you a fast fermentation.
A small amount of potassium chloride (available at a grocery store as "salt substitute") would probably be helpful as well.

These are "normal" products that won't directly cause off-flavors.

i allready add my zinc supp to my beer and cider for my nutritional needs, (they only sell it as a 50mg tablet, which would be too much for me so i have to water it down, yes with beer, lol.....i've got some DAPP but it didn't seem to help...i buy 5lb bags of potassium chloride to make my own home made lite salt, (cheaper),

so i got almost everything....i'll have to look up what fermaid k or o is, and why their different then DAPP....


edit: i guess what i'm really asking is, does anyone know a patent number for a turbo yeast without urea? kinda like the homemade PBW thread? i've tried searching before, and couldn't find one....

 

[RPh_Guy]

Make sure you aren't adding too much zinc. It is toxic to yeast when the level is too high.

 

[bracconiere]

Make sure you aren't adding too much zinc. It is toxic to yeast when the level is too high.

i add 2x50mg tablets to my 10 gallon batches?

 

[Maylar]

Plain old DAP works for cider, but 4 days is unrealistic IMO. If you don't care about flavor then why bother?

 

[bracconiere]

Plain old DAP works for cider, but 4 days is unrealistic IMO. If you don't care about flavor then why bother?

i thought i said, because a 30 pack of 4% miller high life is $20, and i can have 10gallons of apple juice delivered to my door with a 4lb bag of sugar to make 9% cider for $~34.....and yes, i'm an alcoholic...that 30 pack would last me a day and a half, and the cider would last me 10 days.....

 

[RPh_Guy]

i add 2x50mg tablets to my 10 gallon batches?

50mg tablets of what and expressed how?

 

[bracconiere]

zinc gluconate....and? my usual defensive humorous tone toward being the only 'cheap homebrewer' here.....lol, in fact i need to post in the who's brewing this weekend and let everyone know, i got lazy deculming my malt, so i said **** f it, i'll throw in a pound of black patent as 'trim'....probably cost me $10 for 10 gallons of 8%......

 

[GeneDaniels1963]

ferment it hot, up around 80F, that should add some speed

 

[bracconiere]

ferment it hot, up around 80F, that should add some speed

i already do that as a matter of course....like my edit, i think i'm looking for a patent for turbo yeast that i can play with....i've tried searching for different brand name at the PTO, never found one.....maybe this could be just as suitable for the distilling forum...i bet plenty would love 'homemade turbo yeast' like the PBW thread...


But i'm trying to make alcoholic apple juice as fast as possible....lol

 

[RPh_Guy]

Assuming the tablets are expressed as elemental zinc, that's 2.65 ppm zinc.
Minimum zinc level should be 0.1-0.15 ppm, and around 0.5-0.6 ppm can help increase speed. Above that might possibly be harmful.

The yeast eat the zinc, so you're not getting any of it unless you're eating the yeast cake with a spoon. I would dial it down to half a tablet when pitching and then however much you feel you need should be added later when packaging.

 

[BruceH]

i allready add my zinc supp to my beer and cider for my nutritional needs, (they only sell it as a 50mg tablet, which would be too much for me so i have to water it down, yes with beer, lol.....i've got some DAPP but it didn't seem to help...i buy 5lb bags of potassium chloride to make my own home made lite salt, (cheaper),

so i got almost everything....i'll have to look up what fermaid k or o is, and why their different then DAPP....


edit: i guess what i'm really asking is, does anyone know a patent number for a turbo yeast without urea? kinda like the homemade PBW thread? i've tried searching before, and couldn't find one....

A few years ago I had found a pdf analysis of fermaid o. It was close to bread yeast. Since then I boil up some bread yeast in the microwave and use it for yeast nutrients when I make cider or mead.

 

[bracconiere]

The yeast eat the zinc, so you're not getting any of it unless you're eating the yeast cake with a spoon.

damn! throws my calcs out the window....i have been adding it after fermentaition is done recently though....just before kegging....? (getting off-topic in my own thread, i know, call it freestyle, )

 

[RPh_Guy]

Once the yeast go dormant (flocculate) they probably won't take up the zinc, but that's just a guess.

 

[bracconiere]

hmmm, well the RDI is 15mg and the TUL is 40mg...so i have to dilute it somehow, 50mg is the lowest i can get at the grocery.....maybe i'll have to think of getting it in powder form, and adding it to my rice bran/yeast smoothy.....

 

[RPh_Guy]

A couple other things that would speed up fermentation are potassium carbonate and bentonite.

Potassium carbonate provides extra potassium for the yeast and it buffers the pH. You'd only need a small amount.

Bentonite serves as nucleation points to more efficiently remove CO2 during fermentation, reducing yeast stress. Plus it produces a more clear cider. 3g/gal dry.

Both these things should have a significant effect on speed and wouldn't have any negative impact.

You can also consider using a different yeast. I'm not sure how well "turbo" yeast does in cider, but EC-1118 or Red Star Premier Cuvee are both extremely fast, and clean. .. and cheap.

 

[wasully]

I've heard a couple of pro cider makers say they add fermaid O almost all the time.

Like the pharmacist says, 1118 is fast and clean, especially at a warmer temperature.

If I were drinking 20 cans a day, I would probably run a larger pipeline than 10 gallons so the cider can sit and settle for a week or two. But I'd encourage you to think about your drinking first.

If I'm adding sugar for an imperial cider, I'd do the math on how much concentrate is equal to that 4lbs of sugar, and then consider some a/b testing.

But if you're just looking to get drunk cheaply and easily(without worrying about quality), cheap spirits and mixers are the way to go.

 

[bracconiere]

But I'd encourage you to think about your drinking first.

don't worry, i had to start thinking about my drinking 10 years ago, after 5 years it almost killed me....had blood spewing from every hole in my body...that's when i started using cron-o-meter to make i was getting all MY nutes from food....lost 90 pounds, and the doc started raving about how good i was doing....(which makes me laugh)

cheap spirits and mixers are the way to go.

i can make a 1.75l bottle of 40% for $1.25, and aging on wood is cheaper then a mixer....but hard liquor doesn't make me feel as good as naturally fermented drinks, i think it's the esters....

 

[madscientist451]

You don't need to add any nutrients to get a 4 day ferment. Use omega hothead yeast in 2 gallons of juice, then pitch the slurry into 5 gallons, then pitch that slurry into 10 gallons.

 

[Krasdale]

I run a mix of wheat germ and yerba mate thru a mr coffee and use the extract and grounds. Half an ounce of each or less per gallon. Takes off fast and finishes dry.

 

[bracconiere]

You don't need to add any nutrients to get a 4 day ferment. Use omega hothead yeast in 2 gallons of juice, then pitch the slurry into 5 gallons, then pitch that slurry into 10 gallons.

or i could do what i usually do and just dump fresh juice on top of the 10 gall trub(not sure if it's called lees here?), but it still takes 2 weeks

i should have my turbo yeast thursday, gonna give it a try...i'll report back if it's drinkable, not that my taste buds obviously deserve any respect,

 

[madscientist451]

it's just rough when you're on your last keg, know it's going to be dry in 4 days, and don't want to spend $20 on 3 gallons of store bought 4% beer...at least not when i can have 10 gallons of juice delivered to my door for $32, add 4lbs sugar and get 8%)

I'm thinking you can do an 8% all malt beer for about $2 a gallon if you go really light with the hops....the hot head yeast should turn that around in 4 days.
My apologies in advance for hijacking the thread.....

 

[bracconiere]

I'm thinking you can do an 8% all malt beer for about $2 a gallon if you go really light with the hops....the hot head yeast should turn that around in 4 days.
My apologies in advance for hijacking the thread.....

damn man, i can brew a beer for 0.80c a gallon, but it takes me a week to malt the barley, a day to brew it, and 4 days after that to ferment.....

 

[bracconiere]

@RPh_Guy , i only read the abstract of this....do you think i should even read furthere to find the weights for these additives?

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-adv.htm&r=4&f=G&l=50&d=PTXT&p=1&S1=(yeast.ABTX.+AND+nutrients.ABTX.)&OS=abst/yeast+AND+abst/nutrients&RS=(ABST/yeast+AND+ABST/nutrients)

sorry for bugging you....i browsed the thing, and the refferenced patent too...not what i'm looking for....maybe i'll try adding some niacin.....and protein powder....

edit: and my turbo yeast smells like it's pure niacin.....or at least just like my pure niacin powder smells like....

edit #2: well i pitched the turbo, now i'll wait 2 days to see if i'm going to get 10 gallons of 9% cider, or 2 gallons of 65% apple jack.....lol

 

[RPh_Guy]

@RPh_Guy , i only read the abstract of this....do you think i should even read furthere to find the weights for these additives?

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-adv.htm&r=4&f=G&l=50&d=PTXT&p=1&S1=(yeast.ABTX.+AND+nutrients.ABTX.)&OS=abst/yeast+AND+abst/nutrients&RS=(ABST/yeast+AND+ABST/nutrients)

sorry for bugging you....i browsed the thing, and the refferenced patent too...not what i'm looking for....maybe i'll try adding some niacin.....and protein powder....

edit: and my turbo yeast smells like it's pure niacin.....or at least just like my pure niacin powder smells like....

Niacin I know is beneficial for reducing certain compounds like acetaldehyde. I'm not sure whether it affects speed.

Most of the things they mention are compounds that will be in a product like Fermaid O (which is what I suggest), or even the boiled bread yeast that @BruceH mentioned. I'm not sure whether all the B vitamins are helpful.

Besides proper rehydration (which doesn't apply to you because you re-pitch, right?), the several things we mentioned are all known to thoroughly increase fermentation speed. Proper zinc level (0.15-0.60ppm), aggressive yeast (e.g. EC-1118 or kveik), high temperature, access to complex nitrogen sources, high pitch rate, buffering (potassium carbonate), bentonite, and good aeration (and you can give it open air access for the first 12-14 hours for fastest results).

... Obviously make sure there's no preservatives in the juice besides ascorbic acid.

 

[bracconiere]

(which doesn't apply to you because you re-pitch, right?)

LOL, i think i'll save this 18% beast in the turbo pack even if it needs to be washed from whatever, nastiness may prevail...

out of curiosity do amino acids count as 'complex nitrogen sources'? i can buy them by the pound for like 10-20 bucks....

 

[RPh_Guy]

amino acids count as 'complex nitrogen sources'?

Yep! But your results may vary depending on the particular product because you're going off into uncharted territory.

 

[bracconiere]

Yep! But your results may vary depending on the particular product because you're going off into uncharted territory.

well i'll give it a shot, after my brief meth fiasco, i like collecting chemicals like vitamins and amino acids at FAIR prices! i think i'll collect all 20 now, lol...try and do some research on essential amino acids for my favorite fungus.....

 

[bracconiere]

well i pitched a $6 dollar packet of 'fruit turbo yeast' on thursday, it's done today.....not to bad a turn around, so now i can get 9% apple juice in 4 days! in case my pipeline is running low....still kinda pricey $34 for the juice $1.75 for the 4lb's of sugar, $6 for the yeast, and $20 to have the juice delivered to my door, lol


but it's still half the price of miller highlife! (accounting for the 9% instead of 4.6%)


oh and i just tasted it and it tastes fine for drinking, so i ended up with 10 gallons of cider.....yea!

 

[teddyearp]

Glad you got a good batch. You and that pharmacist dude always go WAY over my head, but I sure would like to get to the level you're at and quit spending good money on so-so beer from the store because I'm right there with you.

FWIW, I'll add another vote for EC-1118. In fact I think I'm going back to my original recipe using WalMart Great Value (which costs about $1.74 per three qt bottle), about a cup of sugar and 1/2 packet of EC-1118. My very first batch finished in 2-3 days. I let it go another week to clear. Then it only took about another 2-4 days to bottle carb then cold crash to the fridge. Of course it got a bit better and better the longer it sat in fridge, but hey, pretty quick.

 

[bracconiere]

You and that pharmacist dude always go WAY over my head,

lol, thanks...but unless you're autistic, i'm not over your head!

 

[teddyearp]

lol, thanks...but unless you're autistic, i'm not over your head!

Yeah, but I like the way you said it above, because it is almost how you two seem to approach it:

after my brief meth fiasco

LOL!

 

[bracconiere]

LOL!

if you think that's funny, i don't want to get into my stolen keg, and drug counselor recommended hook up with a heroin addicted prostitute! (needless to say i'm glad i remembered homebrew, and i'm not in prison)

 

[Jayjay1976]

Nutes make great pets. Mine loved eating small bugs and would sometimes try to escape.

 

[bracconiere]

i don't know maybe these are what make coor's lovers out of people?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River_toad

 

[RPh_Guy]

Niacin I know is beneficial for reducing certain compounds like acetaldehyde. I'm not sure whether it affects speed.

Ugh. I meant thiamine, not niacin. Sorry for the mix-up.

 

[wasully]

counselor recommended hook up with a heroin addict

Man have I gotten some similarly terrible relationship advice from counselors in the past.

 

[bracconiere]

Ugh. I meant thiamine, not niacin. Sorry for the mix-up.

at this point, i think it's degraded into drunken humor i love anyways! lol

Man have I gotten some similarly terrible relationship advice from counselors in the past.

and damn it really hurt to pee! and the cousin telling me he f'd her more then i had was funny.....but at the time i thought i had to listen to my counselor, then my PO told me at the end it just expires......face palm, lol

 

[wasully]

Have to ask. Her cousin or your cousin?