Unboxing Colorado Brewing Systems new Single Vessel System

[GQT]

You would have to mount the element inside the basket or the liquid in the basket wouldnt boil...

I'll have to disagree here. For once, theoretically it would be true if the basket was a bucket - i.e., with no holes. Practically however if the bas(buc)ket sits low enough to be close to the heating elements then even it is solid the liquid in it will boil. Not as strong as we need but it will simmer alright.
However as our baskets are no more than mesh, there will be no problem of bringing the kettle to boil. I tried, it worked.

I just use a stainless hop sider and a 30" long piece of stainless braided hose that attaches to my BK diptuube... I use a plate chiller and small DC pumps and have seen no evidence of hop trub in either this way with over 55 brew sessions now.

Yeah this is the 'filter' I have, too. Last batch was a catalog of disasters however with the braided hose dead cemented in hops sediment, pumps getting stuck with bubbles and foam, you know all that. So I thought, damn, how much easier that would be to just have a basket.

Trick is that the full size basket like the one Colorado Systems offers has plenty of surface area to remain transparent for liquid even if there are tons of hoppy mud in the wort. It will silt down onto the bottom but the wort will still escape through the walls, am I wrong?

I am actually being sort of carried away by the idea of such a full size basket, hey anyone, wake me up before I spend cash on ordering a basket...

What do you think? Would it work?

 

[augiedoggy]

I'll have to disagree here. For once, theoretically it would be true if the basket was a bucket - i.e., with no holes. Practically however if the bas(buc)ket sits low enough to be close to the heating elements then even it is solid the liquid in it will boil. Not as strong as we need but it will simmer alright.
However as our baskets are no more than mesh, there will be no problem of bringing the kettle to boil. I tried, it worked.


Yeah this is the 'filter' I have, too. Last batch was a catalog of disasters however with the braided hose dead cemented in hops sediment, pumps getting stuck with bubbles and foam, you know all that. So I thought, damn, how much easier that would be to just have a basket.

Trick is that the full size basket like the one Colorado Systems offers has plenty of surface area to remain transparent for liquid even if there are tons of hoppy mud in the wort. It will silt down onto the bottom but the wort will still escape through the walls, am I wrong?

I am actually being sort of carried away by the idea of such a full size basket, hey anyone, wake me up before I spend cash on ordering a basket...

What do you think? Would it work?

I also have a 16x8" hop basket which sits about an inch directly above my 4500w element... I have yet to be able to get any boiling inside the basket. if the boil is vigerous enough below the basket I suppose it would agitate even the liquid inside but I doubt there is actually any boiling going on inside... everything I have read on this has stated the same...there was actually a thread on it here a while back discussing it. I believe in order to get the the liquid inside the basket hot enough you would need larger holes in the screen than would be effective for the filtration your looking for.

I am not sure we are disagreeing on the basket but rather the size of it... I recirculate prior to filling my BK (clear wort) and my hops mainly stay in the stainless hop "Basket" I already use (where boiling cant occur) the braided line is more of a secondary filter to catch any proteins or hop residue that get through the basket... and yes some does, sometimes more than other brews but never enough to plug anything. I would have to say my system setup has actually been very effective for me and works well.

and as far as filtering through the basket? I believe most of the wort would just Channel its way out through the easiest path bypassing actually traveling through all of the grain... thats my point. the filtering and recirculation would not be as effective.

 

[pretzelb]

I don't own this yet but the video suggests the hose is left on top of the grain bed in the basket so wort is forced to flow through the grains and not outside the basket. Will it form a channel? I assume so but no different than any other system that uses a hose to recirculate during mash. To avoid that I assume you'd need a drip system to avoid channeling but then we are really more talking about lautering techniques instead of how to maintain mash temp. Most times you read about the perils of channeling it's regarding the rinsing of the grains. I'm not sure that channeling is an issue when discussing heat exchange.

For the hop filtering I was looking at the hop blocker Kal uses but I don't think it would fit with the basket. I currently use simple hop bags and they seem fine. I might upgrade to a SS hop tube or spider. Others might be fine but I just fear trying to run a pump out chiller without a filter.

 

[augiedoggy]

I don't own this yet but the video suggests the hose is left on top of the grain bed in the basket so wort is forced to flow through the grains and not outside the basket. Will it form a channel? I assume so but no different than any other system that uses a hose to recirculate during mash. To avoid that I assume you'd need a drip system to avoid channeling but then we are really more talking about lautering techniques instead of how to maintain mash temp. Most times you read about the perils of channeling it's regarding the rinsing of the grains. I'm not sure that channeling is an issue when discussing heat exchange.

For the hop filtering I was looking at the hop blocker Kal uses but I don't think it would fit with the basket. I currently use simple hop bags and they seem fine. I might upgrade to a SS hop tube or spider. Others might be fine but I just fear trying to run a pump out chiller without a filter.

the issue is the sides are open so much of the liquid deposited on top of the grainbed could just run off the top and out the sides ,down the open space between the basket and kettle...basically it will take the easiest path down which may not necessarily be straight down through the grain.. testing with the temp probe is one way to determine whats really happening...

As I understand it, when recirculating during a mash you do two things.
1. You are trying to maintain the correct conversion temp throughout the grain as evenly as possible.

2. You are trying to ensure the best possible exposure of the starches AND flavors in the grain to the correct temp liquid to get the most efficient conversion/ extraction possible... when sparging at the end you still want the most effective even distribution possible to effectively "rinse" remaining sugars from the grain. exposing as much of the grain surface as possible to moving liquid will do this in a better fashion for the same reasons a finer crush does so right?

It very possible that in practice this system is actually doing this job very efficiently. I only asked if anyone has done any testing on this to confirm it... this would be most easily done with a temp probe in the center of the grain mass.

 

[pretzelb]

I'm not sure I understand point #2. It kind of sounds like a repeat of #1 in that the main point is to make sure the temp of the mash is consistent. I guess I always assume when you talk about mash temp you consider the entire mash. So in my mind there is no need to discuss exposing the entire grain bed to the correct temp because that is what you are saying in point #1.

I'm not a fluid dynamics expert but it would seem that unless the grain bed was compacted, free floating grain would provide less resistance than a SS mesh filter. Plus, even if the the water flowed toward the side, the key is the heating aspect of the water. Since we aren't rinsing we aren't trying to make sure we get even water flow around each grain piece. Instead we are just wanting to radiate heat which follows the flow of water but also has it's own path of radiation.

In the end it probably comes down to how much time and expense you are willing to go through to meet your requirements. You could just cover the kettle in a blanket and try to keep the mash temp for 60 minutes. A simple hose re-circulation is probably a step or two above that. Beyond that are probably more expensive options that give better results. But I can't see how this would really hurt since it's providing better control than doing nothing.

I wonder what it would cost to make a SS tube with holes that could shoved into the bed and have the water run through it? I would think that would ensure the warm wort reached wherever you put the tube and radiated from there.

 

[rappell]

Time to stir up this thread as it's gone dormant lately.

Rappell I believe you've done quite a few brews with your Colorado system; what keeps me wondering though is how do you handle hop filtering?
Do you actually boil in the basket, or once you're done mashing, out goes the basket and you just proceed to boiling 'normal way'?

I'd say it'd be tempting to boil in a basket, too - if it could keep the hops away from clogging each and every pipe and pump.
Have you tried?
Please share your experience of using this brewery. Good quality steel and welding is a lot but still not everything. How does it actually feel in hand?

Also, those welding dots along the brim of the basket... have they turned rusty after a few months in use? Did you have to passivate them in any way?

Thanks.

That's a lot of ?s. You can't boil in the basket as it cavitats as it boils and will cause the element to scorch. I use a stainless hop spider for my hops. Quality of all parts is on par with any other systems I've seen. Welds are very nice and I've had zero rust on anything. No pasivation required.

A couple things I had to figure out where which way to curle the hose. Needs to be clockwise to keep the temp probe accurate, and keep it on top so it stirs the pot.

 

[GQT]

unless the grain bed was compacted, free floating grain would provide less resistance than a SS mesh filter

Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I understand I think the whole point is that in these basket systems we don't have to bother about grain beds, husk filtering and alike. BIAB mash is lots thinner than 'traditional', and is more like thick soup than porridge. Hence it really matters little, if at all, how the water enters and how it leaves the basket.

Sorry I might have missed some point so tell me if I'm mistaken.
I finished another brew on Saturday mashing at 7 to 1 water to grain rate (using sort of self made substitute for a basket), and it went pretty well - although the wort was more cloudy than I was used to.
The recipe called for 1 hr mashing, I was done in 28 mins (still continued to 1 hr as prescribed anyway). I did however slightly overshoot the OG - there are things to get used to.

I was recirc'ing continuously and given the thinness of the mash I could perhaps do with no sparging at all but I hoisted the basket and poured it over with 5L of nearly boiling water, and that was it.

Rappell, do you still have to sparge using this system?

Thanks guys for your feedback!

 

[Bellybuster]

I've got quite a few brews on my system now and I think some are misunderstanding brew in a basket.
The grain is not a filter media, the basket is. Temp differences in the mash are non existent as the mash is so thin it moves with the recirculate flow. Not to mention, it's BIAB, stir it! Even traditional mashes can be stirred to rid yourself of temp difference worries.

I can say right off, do not boil with the basket installed. The mesh is tight enough to stop the boiling vapour from coming through. A very large bubble will accumulate under the basket and plop to the surface quickly once it overcomes the bottom edges of the basket. Hot sticky boiling wort splashing on your arm is not a good thing....trust me. There will be screaming like a girl.

I just love my system. It has completely simplified brewing for me at a time where interest was waining with my single tier 3 vessel.

As a side note, Tim at Col Brewing systems puts out a great product. One thing I cannot recommend is the legs. I got them and wish I hadn't. A flat sitting pot gives more confidence than one sitting high on 8" legs. I had visions of setting it up with the controller under like in the picture....not. Spills while brewing are inevitable

 

[GQT]

the mash is so thin it moves with the recirculate flow

Thanks Bellybuster, so I was rather right than wrong

Tell me what, is your wort cloudy or clear? I only did one brew on a traditional system (a friend allowed me to play with his toys) and after some manipulations I managed to make it pretty clear, like the brewing books suggest. However doing BIAB I have never achieved anything remotely as clear as that. (not that I've done a lot; I'm a newcomer to the hobby).

Thanks for clarifying the basket thing.
How do you manage hop filtering, if you don't mind answering this offtopic question?

 

[ampsman]

Do you use a bag inside of the basket? Or just the basket?

 

[30Bones]

Do you use a bag inside of the basket? Or just the basket?

Why would you need to use both? The basket is an option/upgrade over a false bottom and using a bag.

 

[ampsman]

So theres no issue with grains spilling over the edges? Or does it sit up about the water lever I guess?

 

[30Bones]

So theres no issue with grains spilling over the edges? Or does it sit up about the water lever I guess?

The video they link on their site gives you that as a possibility, but I also think in that video they are at max capacity. Maybe I am wrong, but that wouldn't always be the case??

 

[Bellybuster]

The top of the basket is your volume maximum wort in a biab system is never clear, I have learned wort clarity matters little if any at all.
Once you have maxed out the volume you can still go bigger batch by sparging, this is simple, do the math for the grain and pour water over the mashed grain after lifting it out of the wort. I can mash a 13 gallon batch in my 20 gallon system but I always up the grain and do a 15 gallon batch.

There is no need for a bag with the basket. The basket replaces the bag.

 

[Bellybuster]

If I were to build this system from scratch I'd do it all the same except I'd add a pump switch to the control
The PID used is very easy to operate with one touch change from auto to manual.

 

[augiedoggy]

The top of the basket is your volume maximum wort in a biab system is never clear, I have learned wort clarity matters little if any at all.
Once you have maxed out the volume you can still go bigger batch by sparging, this is simple, do the math for the grain and pour water over the mashed grain after lifting it out of the wort. I can mash a 13 gallon batch in my 20 gallon system but I always up the grain and do a 15 gallon batch.

There is no need for a bag with the basket. The basket replaces the bag.

If I understand this correctly, This comment right here is the key indicator that the wort is NOT recirculating through the grainbed effectively in this setup as it would in fact cause the grain bed to form a natural filter and the wort would clear up.... (even when removing the basket slowly since the grains dont really shift with this setup vs a bag). In a BIAB setup the recirculating wort should be clear UNTIL the bag is disturbed...
if the wort does not turn clear while recirculating my money would be on an actual BIAB system over a basket of this type anyday. both will make great beer but a bag will net you the benefits of real recirculation and even grain temps. the basket would be more or less a temp controlled cooler setup this way.

In my experience it doesnt matter much if the mash is very thin once you start recirculating most of the grains dont float and settle... my impression was there wasnt so much liquid that the grain basket was completely submerged... this could potentially make the recirculation even waeker in this case. and yes the basket filters but moving liquid contact through the actual grain does the magic and rinses the sugars away from the grain... if the flow isnt consisent through the grain than the temperature may very well not be too... again why it would be nice if someone could do a simple experiment to indicate whats really happening. otherwise we are really just guessing.

 

[GQT]

the wort is NOT recirculating through the grainbed effectively in this setup...... In a BIAB setup the recirculating wort should be clear UNTIL the bag is disturbed...
if the wort does not turn clear while recirculating my money would be on an actual BIAB system over a basket of this type anyday.

I think we're having a massive misunderstanding here.
The wort is recirc'ing a hundred times more effectively in this setup than in 'traditional'. In fact all the mash grain is permanently suspended in troubled wort much like yeast is suspended in the midst of starter on a stirplate.

Hence the very notion of a grain bed is redundant in this setup. Grain and husk are in constant motion and nothing settles down to carry out this filtering function.

Temperatures in this setup are absolutely even throughout the basket for the same reason: it is moving and being mixed non-stop.
This is opposite to what you said, In my experience it doesnt matter much if the mash is very thin once you start recirculating most of the grains dont float and settle - but I think it is because we take recirculation differently. You probably recirc by letting water carefully drip over mash grain, like in 'traditional' way, while in my setup the recirc pipe enters the mash body and makes it whirl around.

my impression was there wasnt so much liquid that the grain basket was completely submerged

This might have happened because you used 'traditional' water/grain ratio which doesn't apply to this setup (my last brew went with 7/1 ratio). BTW, why does the basket have to be completely submerged??

I don't have Colorado Brewing system and I hardly ever will as I live in a place where it is times cheaper to assemble the system with my own hands, but I'm on the way to clone it (with some improvements, such as 180 degrees turning crane arm) and I bow to the guys who brought it to the market and made more folks turn to BIAB

I do have some concerns and questions of course which I hope to solve with your help, but all in all I believe BIAB setups are going to make a fresh start on a new level. People are used to seeing BIABs as a technology inferior to 3V, or something you will inevitably overgrow pretty soon. Some know as little about BIAB as to think BIAB is synonymous to extract brewing.
However, it is simply a different way to make beer.

would be nice if someone could do a simple experiment to indicate whats really happening.

This is what brought me here, too. I experimented with my BIAB setup, and found that:
1 - recirculation makes mashing a lot faster: my mash was done in 28 minutes (iodine test showed no whatsoever color change)
2 - it takes time and hit and miss practice to get used to it to come to your planned OG: I overshot it by 7 points (was 1062-1063 instead of 1055)
3 - wort is all cloudy and I believe it adds to the amount of sediment in the kettle
4 - sparging is still possible in BIAB setup: save some water till the end of mashing, then lift the basket and pour the water over it, then let it drip down; it won't take long as the spent is not compressed and lets water through easily

But anyway it'd be good to listen to Rappell's stories about his experience.

 

[Bellybuster]

yup, augie, you're missing something here. The grain bed (there really isn't a bed) is not the filter, the basket is. The basket top is not under the liquid level or you'd have loose grain free flowing throughout your pot.
In BIABag and/or basket, the wort is never clear. My grain crush is probably 50-70% flour, good luck clearing that. Traditional mashing would equal stuck bad with that crush. Clear wort is probably the most over rated desire of all in home brewing. It might look pretty but serves no purpose.

 

[augiedoggy]

yup, augie, you're missing something here. The grain bed (there really isn't a bed) is not the filter, the basket is. The basket top is not under the liquid level or you'd have loose grain free flowing throughout your pot.
In BIABag and/or basket, the wort is never clear. My grain crush is probably 50-70% flour, good luck clearing that. Traditional mashing would equal stuck bad with that crush. Clear wort is probably the most over rated desire of all in home brewing. It might look pretty but serves no purpose.

In a recirculating biab system the wort is deposited on top of the bag of grain and through it to reach the bottom where the pump, pumps it back onto. the grainbed does in fact form and the finer particles do in fact form a filter in this setup.
The bag simply acts as a false bottom for the most part in this setup. as far as mashing goes it works the same way as the false bottom I use. it allows for easy removal of the grain as well and at that point it gets cloudy.
A basket on the otherhand sits in the center of the kettle and the wort is not forced through it with fairly even resistance since it can just flow around it more easily. sticking a temp probe in the center of the grain basket and step mashing will honestly tell us how effectively the recirculating liquid is making its way through the grain.

I have made beers with very watery mashes and thick mashes and each time the brain does in fact settle and the wort is clear about 20-30 minutes into the mash recirculation. I dont believe the grain just keeps moving around in the basket "Like yeast on a stirplate" myself. I know some baskets have a lid. we know that both systems make beer and the efficiency is apparently not am issue so it doesnt matter much.

 

[Bellybuster]

Ok you're talking bag, I'm in basket mode. Quite a bit different. Same result though....glorious beer

 

[rappell]

For those worried about having clear wort by using the grain bed as a filter, This is a good read. http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/

 

[pretzelb]

For those worried about having clear wort by using the grain bed as a filter, This is a good read. http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/

Interesting read. Ironic how clarity was better with the increase in trub.

I think what many will miss about this study is that the final taste difference is subjective to preference. In general homebrewers look at brewing methods as simple binary decisions like it's either good or bad. Instead many methods depend on your preference. In this case you could decide on your "trub control" based on your desired outcome for the beer, as the author notes, either smooth or crisp.

But even having said that it still sounds like you'd have to really go overboard with the trub (and be brewing something very pale) to have an impact.

 

[rappell]

I agree pretzels. My fave beer is Saison. I've brewed many with both traditional and now eBIAB and I can't perceive a taste or appearance difference in the finished beer between the two methods.

The difference between the two for me revolved around nailing down the step by step procedure for the eBIAB system. The only effects where on my efficiency. Once I got that worked out, I consistently get 80%+ mash efficiency. Having said that I do manage my water chemistry and that also helps a lot. I feel it's very important with BIAB water/grain ratios.

 

[rappell]

Sorry about the auto correct pretzelb

 

[robcj]

yup, augie, you're missing something here. The grain bed (there really isn't a bed) is not the filter, the basket is. The basket top is not under the liquid level or you'd have loose grain free flowing throughout your pot.
In BIABag and/or basket, the wort is never clear. My grain crush is probably 50-70% flour, good luck clearing that. Traditional mashing would equal stuck bad with that crush. Clear wort is probably the most over rated desire of all in home brewing. It might look pretty but serves no purpose.

I get what Augie is saying. I BIAB with an external RIMS setup and I can attest that the grain bed settles and compacts at the bottom of the bag. Depending on how I throttle the valve on the pump outlet, the force of the wort return will keep some grain in suspension but my experience is that most of it settles and compacts. Are you saying that doesn't happen with a basket? That the grain stays in suspension throughout the mash and doesn't compact at the bottom of the basket?

 

[GQT]

Are you saying that doesn't happen with a basket? That the grain stays in suspension throughout the mash and doesn't compact at the bottom of the basket?

Much like this. As I said, like yeast on a stirplate - but I believe it depends on how the recirculated water is reintroduced to the mash. If it just rains on the top, I would see no reason why grain shouldn't compact. If this water comes from a pipe that is stuck right in the middle of the body of mash it is different.

 

[robcj]

Much like this. As I said, like yeast on a stirplate - but I believe it depends on how the recirculated water is reintroduced to the mash. If it just rains on the top, I would see no reason why grain shouldn't compact. If this water comes from a pipe that is stuck right in the middle of the body of mash it is different.

My water returns to the kettle via silicone hose that I drop into the water in the kettle, probably about a third of the way in. I'm reluctant to place the hose any deeper because I think I would end up recirculating the same water from the bottom of the kettle. During my last two brews with this setup, I noticed a lot of compacting, which concerned me. But as I mentioned, I use a bag, not a basket.

Maybe I need to experiment with the depth of the hose and pump flow rate to see if I can get most of the grain into suspension.

 

[GQT]

Maybe I need to experiment with the depth of the hose and pump flow rate to see if I can get most of the grain into suspension.

Or, maybe a basket is the key. Never brewed in a soft bag, and I don't doubt some people can create great beers with its help. But talking specifically about this free floating vs being compressed to walls/bottom, I think the basket just makes it easier. Try once

 

[akthor]

Reading this gets me excited my 40 gallon pot and basket should be coming soon from Tim.

 

[robcj]

Or, maybe a basket is the key. Never brewed in a soft bag, and I don't doubt some people can create great beers with its help. But talking specifically about this free floating vs being compressed to walls/bottom, I think the basket just makes it easier. Try once

Not an easy thing to trial--but I do plan on buying one for my setup anyway.

 

[Bellybuster]

Reading this gets me excited my 40 gallon pot and basket should be coming soon from Tim.

40 gallons!! Brew on Brother!!
You won't be disappointed

 

[JoshuaW]

Dumb question, does this come with a sight glass on the kettle?

 

[trnitz]

What is the time of your average brew day?

 

[rappell]

Dumb question, does this come with a sight glass on the kettle?

No sight glass. He will add one of you ask. Don't know the price. I added one myself with parts I already had. Soldered on a T-clover from brew hardware.com.View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1446402736.042859.jpg

 

[rappell]

Dumb question, does this come with a sight glass on the kettle?

No sight glass. He will add one of you ask. Don't know the price. I added one myself with parts I already had. Soldered on a T-clover from brew hardware.com.View attachment 313247

 

[rappell]

What is the time of your average brew day?

Of course it depends on the mash profile. I do a lot of Belgian style beers with long step mashes. Those run about 4.5 hours. Quickest I've had was 3.

 

[akthor]

For I think it was $20 or $30 they will laser etch the gallon marks on the inside that's what I got with my 40 gallon pot from them

 

[rappell]

For I think it was $20 or $30 they will laser etch the gallon marks on the inside that's what I got with my 40 gallon pot from them

That's a better option cleanup wise. They did not yet have the option when I ordered.

 

[glenm]

Hi all, I've been lurking on the site reading the excellent discussions for a while. Glad to be here.

This thread has been very interesting. Even if I didn't understand before, by now I really understand that brewing in a bag or basket is very different from a traditional mash. I get that. Really.

I guess I'm curious, though, why one wouldn't combine the approaches.

As some have commented, the basket has mesh sides, so some of the recirculating wort will exit the side mesh and flow down without going through the grain.

So why not replace the mesh sides with solid? All the flow goes through the bottom mesh. THEN, you could run a faster recirc at the beginning to get that swirling grain, and slowwww down the flow at mash out, let the bed settle without channeling and become a better filter. Wouldn't that give you the best of both worlds?

Possibly this wouldn't work - some have mentioned using a finer grind for this style of brewing. Maybe that compacts too much and you're stuck. But does the grind have to be finer?

Just thinking out loud. Love to hear your thoughts. This is a cool looking system.

 

[30Bones]

I look at this as soaking the grains rather than using the grains for a filter like on a "traditional" mash tun. It really shouldn't matter where the wort goes as much with BIAB. Maybe I am wrong