Trying to make a “dryer” less sweet brew

[jcs401]

I’ve made a bunch of brews and all have come out with a sweetness to them. Not a bad flavor like corn or anything like that but just a sweet type finish. This weekend I’ll be brewing a smash ipa which I’ll list the recipe below.
My question is, I know I can add more buttering hops to possibly compensate but does mash temps help with making the beer dryer or does longer/shorter boils or both?
I would just like this to come out dryer finish and less sweet. Here’s what I’m thinking recipe wise;

 

[mirthfuldragon]

Mash lower (148-150°) will help convert more starches to sugars and to simpler sugars. Other than that, pitching healthy yeast in the proper amount will help as well. Different strains have different attenuation rates (the percentage of sugars they will consume), leaving dryer or sweeter beers. For example, belle saison is a diastaticus strain, which will consume some dextrins (more complex sugars that typical yeasts cannot consume), so it will dry out a beer considerably. Alcohol tolerance also plays a role, but at <8% that should not come in to play; most if not all strains should be able to handle that.

 

[stickyfinger]

I haven't found mash temperature to do anything with respect to dryness or mouthfeel. This could change if you go ultra low on the FG by using amylase enzymes, but for an ordinary infusion mash between 150-165, I haven't found much of a difference (though I haven't done an actual side by side beer) The big things to prevent sweetness in my opinion are the following:

- make sure you are thoroughly fermenting the wort so that there are no simple sugars left
- avoid low attenuating yeasts - wy1056, wlp001 and us-05 all come off pretty dry to me
- try reducing malts that may increase perception of sweetness
- replace some of the malt in your recipe with plain sugar (only if you can make sure to ferment it all out thoroughly!)
- consider using some gypsum in the mash or boil to increase perception of dryness. nothing gives a drying crisp flavor like a gypsum addition. I would suggest 150 ppm as a starting point or maybe 100 ppm if you want to be conservative the first time.
- for IPAs, use more dry hops. Dry hops can increase the perception of dryness in an IPA sometimes
- use a lower OG - if you start with a lower OG, the resulting beer should almost certainly taste dryer if all else is held constant, especially for IPAs

 

[jcs401]

I haven't found mash temperature to do anything with respect to dryness or mouthfeel. This could change if you go ultra low on the FG by using amylase enzymes, but for an ordinary infusion mash between 150-165, I haven't found much of a difference (though I haven't done an actual side by side beer) The big things to prevent sweetness in my opinion are the following:

- make sure you are thoroughly fermenting the wort so that there are no simple sugars left
- avoid low attenuating yeasts - wy1056, wlp001 and us-05 all come off pretty dry to me
- try reducing malts that may increase perception of sweetness
- replace some of the malt in your recipe with plain sugar (only if you can make sure to ferment it all out thoroughly!)
- consider using some gypsum in the mash or boil to increase perception of dryness. nothing gives a drying crisp flavor like a gypsum addition. I would suggest 150 ppm as a starting point or maybe 100 ppm if you want to be conservative the first time.
- for IPAs, use more dry hops. Dry hops can increase the perception of dryness in an IPA sometimes
- use a lower OG - if you start with a lower OG, the resulting beer should almost certainly taste dryer if all else is held constant, especially for IPAs

Great! I will give this a shot. How do I know how much gypsum to add to a 5g batch in the boil? How do I test 100ppm?

 

[thehaze]

Brewing water is equally important, if you want a drier finish in your beer. A slightly elevated level of sulfate will get you that, but do not go amok both on IBUs and sulfate, as it could turn different than you would expect.

Drier means getting your Final Gravity around 1.010 and actually under it. I prefer IPAs, smash, Pale Ales in the 1.007-1.010 range.

Mash low and long. You can also add a bit of sugar, like 5% in the boil to replace 5% malt ( more if you dare ) to thin out the body of the beer.

Your predicted OG is way high, if you want a drier beer and also too high for a smash. Shoot for 1.053-1.055 and with the right yeast, mash schedule and fermentation, you could see the beer finishing under 1.010.

As for the recipe itself, you are low on hops for 5 gallons, especially since you are brewing a smash, which uses one of the most used hops for IPAs and general hoppy styles. I am not the biggest IPA fan, but 5.5 oz hops for 5 gallons is low, even for a tame Pale Ale. Personally, I never go under 6 oz for dry hopping and I use at least 6 oz in the kettle: late additions ( no " classic " bittering addition )+whirlpool at 158F for 15-30 minutes.

Cheers!

 

[stickyfinger]

Great! I will give this a shot. How do I know how much gypsum to add to a 5g batch in the boil? How do I test 100ppm?

if you aren't already using Bru'n Water, i would suggest getting it (free) and spending some time to figure it out. it's not bad to learn how to use it. it will help you to nail your mash pH as well. the only tricky part is getting your water profile - might have to call around or do kit test - and then making sure you enter the correct values in the correct places. even if you don't enter your water profile into Bru'n, you can still use it to calculate how much additional sulfate (or other cations/anions) you are adding to your mash/boil. i use a scale capable of gram measurements, but you should be able to ballpark it with an 1/8 tsp measuring spoon if you don't have a nice scale.

 

[jcs401]

if you aren't already using Bru'n Water, i would suggest getting it (free) and spending some time to figure it out. it's not bad to learn how to use it. it will help you to nail your mash pH as well. the only tricky part is getting your water profile - might have to call around or do kit test - and then making sure you enter the correct values in the correct places. even if you don't enter your water profile into Bru'n, you can still use it to calculate how much additional sulfate (or other cations/anions) you are adding to your mash/boil. i use a scale capable of gram measurements, but you should be able to ballpark it with an 1/8 tsp measuring spoon if you don't have a nice scale.

I’ll look into the bru’n thanks

 

[jcs401]

Brewing water is equally important, if you want a drier finish in your beer. A slightly elevated level of sulfate will get you that, but do not go amok both on IBUs and sulfate, as it could turn different than you would expect.

Drier means getting your Final Gravity around 1.010 and actually under it. I prefer IPAs, smash, Pale Ales in the 1.007-1.010 range.

Mash low and long. You can also add a bit of sugar, like 5% in the boil to replace 5% malt ( more if you dare ) to thin out the body of the beer.

Your predicted OG is way high, if you want a drier beer and also too high for a smash. Shoot for 1.053-1.055 and with the right yeast, mash schedule and fermentation, you could see the beer finishing under 1.010.

As for the recipe itself, you are low on hops for 5 gallons, especially since you are brewing a smash, which uses one of the most used hops for IPAs and general hoppy styles. I am not the biggest IPA fan, but 5.5 oz hops for 5 gallons is low, even for a tame Pale Ale. Personally, I never go under 6 oz for dry hopping and I use at least 6 oz in the kettle: late additions ( no " classic " bittering addition )+whirlpool at 158F for 15-30 minutes.

Cheers!

Does this look any better? Mashing at 148

 

[stickyfinger]

what are you going for here? a super hoppy beer or a more "balanced" beer? if you want a lot of hop flavor, i would use 1 oz/gal in the hopstand and then 1-2 oz/gal in the dryhop. you can use more mundane hops in the hopstand if you want (like ctz or something else cheap but still flavorful)and save the pricey hops for the dryhop. i do that all of the time. Half of those numbers should work well for a more subdued hop beer. Though, I do a super hoppy Pils with Ekuanot hops and all I do is 1 oz/gal in the hopstand. This results in a super hoppy Pils as though it has been dry hopped, amazing. So, you could try a large hopstand without dry hops if you want as well.

Mash at whatever temp you want, just make darn sure that you are fermenting out all of the simple (ie sweet tasting) sugars or it will seem fuller and sweeter than it needs to be. are you carbonating the beer enough? if it's not spritzy, it can come across as sweet as well.

 

[jcs401]

what are you going for here? a super hoppy beer or a more "balanced" beer? if you want a lot of hop flavor, i would use 1 oz/gal in the hopstand and then 1-2 oz/gal in the dryhop. half of those numbers should work well for a more subdued hop beer. Though, I do a super hoppy Pils with Ekuanot hops and all I do is 1 oz/gal in the hopstand. This results in a super hoppy Pils as though it has been dry hopped, amazing. So, you could try a large hopstand without dry hops if you want as well.

Mash at whatever temp you want, just make darn sure that you are fermenting out all of the simple (ie sweet tasting) sugars or it will seem fuller and sweeter than it needs to be. are you carbonating the beer enough? if it's not spritzy, it can come across as sweet as well.

I am trying to make a lone pint, yellow rose smash ipa clone.
The only recipe I found on brewers friend seems very low on hops but gives the ibu’s that yellow rose has on their website. I was trying to tweak it a bit to be sure I don’t get this sweetness I’ve been getting. There recipe is

 

[jcs401]

Should I just follow this brewers friend recipe and hope for the best?

 

[stickyfinger]

what are you going for here? a super hoppy beer or a more "balanced" beer? if you want a lot of hop flavor, i would use 1 oz/gal in the hopstand and then 1-2 oz/gal in the dryhop. you can use more mundane hops in the hopstand if you want (like ctz or something else cheap but still flavorful)and save the pricey hops for the dryhop. i do that all of the time. Half of those numbers should work well for a more subdued hop beer. Though, I do a super hoppy Pils with Ekuanot hops and all I do is 1 oz/gal in the hopstand. This results in a super hoppy Pils as though it has been dry hopped, amazing. So, you could try a large hopstand without dry hops if you want as well.

Mash at whatever temp you want, just make darn sure that you are fermenting out all of the simple (ie sweet tasting) sugars or it will seem fuller and sweeter than it needs to be. are you carbonating the beer enough? if it's not spritzy, it can come across as sweet as well.

Should I just follow this brewers friend recipe and hope for the best?

never had that one, sorry. it would be good to at least try soliciting advice from HBT or Reddit in a targeted post with the beer name in the subject line. I've found the Brewer's Friend (or other online recipes) to be pretty unreliable. Sometimes they are good; sometimes crap. It's always nice to have the advice of a brewer on the forum - i trust them a lot more than a website recipe. plus, then you can attack them mercilessly if your clone doesn't work out. ha ha ha

worst case, you brew it that way and then adjust to try to clone it if you miss! i usually get tired of clone attempts after maybe 2 tries though, so I guess i never perfect them unless it is darn close the first few times!

 

[jcs401]

never had that one, sorry. it would be good to at least try soliciting advice from HBT or Reddit in a targeted post with the beer name in the subject line. I've found the Brewer's Friend (or other online recipes) to be pretty unreliable. Sometimes they are good; sometimes crap. It's always nice to have the advice of a brewer on the forum - i trust them a lot more than a website recipe. plus, then you can attack them mercilessly if your clone doesn't work out. ha ha ha

worst case, you brew it that way and then adjust to try to clone it if you miss! i usually get tired of clone attempts after maybe 2 tries though, so I guess i never perfect them unless it is darn close the first few times!

Understandable. Most of the forums I’ve found on this recipe/clone has not been very recent so I guess I’ll comment and see if the brewer still stands by it.

 

[kh54s10]

I am not of the same opinion on the amount of hops. It depends on the hop. Some will give a lot with a little and others you need a lot of hops to get a hoppy beer. It is also to taste. I have never used 6 ounces for a dry hop. Mine are plenty hoppy to my taste. Too much to others.

To make things easier I would combine all the late additions at 10 minutes, adjust as necessary to keep the ibu's up. Then I personally would do a 2 ounce hop stand after dropping the temperature to 170 let it sit for 15 minutes and do 2 ounce dry hop. I sometimes up the hop stand and eliminate the dry hop and sometime the other way around.

That is the beauty of home brewing, there are many ways to accomplish reasonable results. Somewhat it is up to the brewer to learn what gives the results he/she desires.

But asking questions does give you a starting point.

 

[HOPME]

I had Yellow Rose when I was down in San Antonio. Solid Texas beer for sure. As stated by many, lower the mash temp a little and add some sugar. US 05 should get you around .010-.012 or so no problem which is where you want to be and will also let the Mosaic shine. I wouldn't want to go much lower than that.

Would also remove the 30/15 min hop addition and wait until flame out with about 3oz.

It's rare to nail a clone on the first try. So brew, try, tweak, brew it again. Gotta love this hobby. Good luck.

 

[Olavn]

Hi jcs!
I would go simple at first, changing as few of the variables as possible, that way I would know it worked.

So my advice; reduce the OG to - let us say 1056 - in reality this means use less malt! Beersmith will tell you how much.

Also use a type of yeast that will bring your FG lower, like 1006 is good. US05 often finishes there for me.

That is two variables. You might want to increase you mouthfeel by mashing out on a high temperature in our «brewers window». If you do, the complex sugers will give mouthfeel, but will not taste sweet, and/but they will be measured in the FG as residual sugars - so/result; you loose control over what works.

I’d go simple, and next time - when you know what works how for you; add another variable.

Good luck!
Dry stuff is my stuff too!

 

[bigplunkett]

Mash low add 8 oz sugar at 3nd of boil and use amalyse ensime

 

[BarleyStanding]

Mash somewhere between 148-152 and add simple sugar at flameout. I add honey to everything at flameout to dry things up. I know other guys that use simple sugars (honey is expensive, but had anti- microbial properties). That's how I do it.

 

[luis ferro]

The sweetness sensation can be associated with esteres from fermentation, ingredients (such as caramel malts) and residual sugar / body / FG.
To avoid esteres, make sure you have a good pitching, oxigen and fermentation occurring in the lower temperature.
To nail a lower fg, mash with lower temperatures (64c) for longer time (75min) and use high attenuation yeast (us 05).
Avoid massive usage of caramel malts. You might want to try a bit of Rye malt that brings a dryness and crispy sensation

 

[brewbama]

Use a yeast that attenuates more. A Saccharomyces cerevisiae var. diastaticus yeast will take it lower resulting in a dryer beer.

Choose a mash schedule that will produce a more fermentable wort. “The first rest (maltose rest) should be held at or around 63C (145F) and it’s length is used to control the fermentability of the wort. A good starting point for its duration is 30 min. Longer for more fermentable wort and shorter for less fermentable wort. If even higher fermentability is desired an intermediate rest at 65C (150F) can be added. “

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Infusion_Mashing

 

[FastTalker]

Also make sure you are using a reliable thermometer to measure your strike water and mash.

 

[Redtab78]

Tbere is a crap ton of advice here, all pointing at many different variables, thats for sure.

The way i get a drier finish is to just lower my mash temp. If i mash low at about 146-148 (i always mash for 90 min, and i always do a 90 min boil, but thats just me) i usually still hit my target or within a point or so. I also do an iodine test at 90 min to double check conversion.

Before i started using pumps and fly sparging and doing step mashes and such , i would vorlauf, and collect first runnings, and then batch sparge with 165-168 F sparge water, and i also stir the mash with the sparge water, and let it sit for around 10 min, then vorlauf and collect the rest of my wort. Just changing the mash temp always worked out how i wanted just fine.

But in all honesty, since your shooting for a specific change (less sweet flavor), i would only change 1 thing at a time....try mashing lower and see how it turns out, then rebrew and keep it all the same except change the hop schedule to see the difference etc.

 

[fav13andacdc]

What are these sweet beers finishing out at?

FWIW, oxidation to me tastes like a sweetness that overpowers the other components. Perhaps this could be another avenue for you to look into? What does your packaging process look like?

 

[PADave]

Mash lower. I have to question anyone that says mash at any temp you want. Don't think they know what goes on in a mash. Simple corn sugar can also dry things out.

 

[stickyfinger]

Mash lower. I have to question anyone that says mash at any temp you want. Don't think they know what goes on in a mash. Simple corn sugar can also dry things out.

depends on what you mean by dry. low FG or dry flavor.

 

[Mer-man]

Mash lower. I have to question anyone that says mash at any temp you want. Don't think they know what goes on in a mash. Simple corn sugar can also dry things out.

You might be interested to listen to the latest Master Brewers podcast with Joe Hartrich about American 2-row malt

 

[stickyfinger]

You might be interested to listen to the latest Master Brewers podcast with Joe Hartrich about American 2-row malt

what is the cliff’s notes version

 

[ewoogy]

I made a yellow rose clone almost exactly like your recipe and it was the best beer I have ever made! Had three full kegs of different stuff for a party and the yellow rose was completely gone at the end of the night. Even those who don’t like IPA’s like it. Anyway hope yours turns out as good as mind did.

 

[Neilyboy]

@NatureOfTheYeast has worked his butt off on a yellow rose smash 'clone'. I plan to make this my first brew on my new electric biab rig.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...-yellow-rose-clone.494127/page-2#post-7613062

/edit... i see you found that thread as well, lol! well let us know how it goes im excited to brew this one!

Neil

 

[Mer-man]

what is the cliff’s notes version

Ep 89, at 22:50. The reductive version is that due to the extreme over-abundance of enzyme in the 6-row-ified modern 2-row in North America, you cannot control attenuation through conventional mash operations.
Consequently, the message is mash high and short.

So if the OP wants drier beer, he could use American 2-row instead of German.

 

[stickyfinger]

Ep 89, at 22:50. The reductive version is that due to the extreme over-abundance of enzyme in the 6-row-ified modern 2-row in North America, you cannot control attenuation through conventional mash operations.
Consequently, the message is mash high and short.

So if the OP wants drier beer, he could use American 2-row instead of German.

makes sense. i’ve noticed I’m over 50% there in like 10-15 mins of mashing, and I always do a mashout to prevent over-attenuation. I think you’d have to go to an undermodified malt though, as German Pils malt seems very well-modified too.

 

[Mer-man]

It's not really a modification thing, it's agronomics. Americans want yield and Germans want the same beer

 

[Shawn3997]

My brews are all still too sweet for me and I've done step-mashes, etc. I seem to always get 77-79% attenuation no matter which yeast I use or which mash schedule. The same with different malts. The only thing I can think of is that it has to do with our water here having pretty much nothing in it. (Our calcium ppm is 6, sulphate is 9, etc.) I adjust the pH in the mash but not post-fermentation which I think I'll try. A bit of water or ice cube added to my beers helps so I might just need to lower my O.G. I'm going to start adding a bit of calcium chloride (starting with 1/2 teaspoon) in case that's an issue. I'm hoping it will also clear up some chill haze. 'Tis a quandary.

 

[stickyfinger]

My brews are all still too sweet for me and I've done step-mashes, etc. I seem to always get 77-79% attenuation no matter which yeast I use or which mash schedule. The same with different malts. The only thing I can think of is that it has to do with our water here having pretty much nothing in it. (Our calcium ppm is 6, sulphate is 9, etc.) I adjust the pH in the mash but not post-fermentation which I think I'll try. A bit of water or ice cube added to my beers helps so I might just need to lower my O.G. I'm going to start adding a bit of calcium chloride (starting with 1/2 teaspoon) in case that's an issue. I'm hoping it will also clear up some chill haze. 'Tis a quandary.

I'd recommend ditching the calcium chloride and adding calcium sulfate (gypsum.) Try 150 ppm added to start.

 

[ESBrewer]

My brews are all still too sweet for me and I've done step-mashes, etc. I seem to always get 77-79% attenuation no matter which yeast I use or which mash schedule. The same with different malts.

More details would be needed to give any specific suggestions. How is the OG/FG of the beer and what would be a description of a commercial beer that is NOT too sweet to your taste? What are some of these grain bills & yeasts? Constant attenuation refers to a situation where only a certain amount of fermentable sugars can be obtained or the yeast health is compromised. Have you tried to brew with base malt only and have you calibrated the thermometers that you use in the mash? If so, make sure that you don't underpitch and there are all the nutrients available that the yeast needs. And make sure that the yeast is able to withstand the level of alcohol that will be produced. If you are looking for a very dry beer, you may still need to add some fermentable sugar (0-20%) to the grain bill. Have you already tried with sugar? Have you got enough bittering hops (how is the ratio between IBUs and OG) so that the 'sweetness' is not just a sense because it lacks balance between sweet maltiness and hop bitterness?

 

[brewbama]

My brews are all still too sweet for me and I've done step-mashes, etc. I seem to always get 77-79% attenuation no matter which yeast I use or which mash schedule. The same with different malts. The only thing I can think of is that it has to do with our water here having pretty much nothing in it. (Our calcium ppm is 6, sulphate is 9, etc.) I adjust the pH in the mash but not post-fermentation which I think I'll try. A bit of water or ice cube added to my beers helps so I might just need to lower my O.G. I'm going to start adding a bit of calcium chloride (starting with 1/2 teaspoon) in case that's an issue. I'm hoping it will also clear up some chill haze. 'Tis a quandary.

What yeast are you using? The same for each batch or different strains?

 

[Shawn3997]

I think it's just an attenuation issue but if the calcium chloride doesn't fix it I'll try adding some gypsum for a drier finish. I'm using WLP940 which has been the best performer so far.

 

[Mer-man]

@Shawn3997 940 is Mexican Lager -- I think based on your recipe people were expecting an ale yeast. Lager yeast generally do not attenuate as highly as ale yeast.
You might try substituting simple sugar for 5-10% of your base malt