too much flakes kill head retention?

[piteko]

Hi,
I usually have no head retention issues, not at all, but when I use over 20% of flaket grains (appears to be independent on the grain type, happend with oats twice and with barley once), I have a very difficult time lautering, I finish with a worth that is full of powder and I end up with a beer that doesn't have head retention.

Two questions:
1) do you know what's going on?
2) I have a beer that I brewed 2 days ago with 20% of flaked barley. Same story, the beer is fully fermenting but there is absolutely not foam on top. Suggestions to correct the problem?

Cheers from Italy!
Piteko

 

[mabrungard]

How long and how hard are you boiling? Long and hard boils reduce coagulable nitrogen in the wort and that reduces head retention.

 

[piteko]

How long and how hard are you boiling? Long and hard boils reduce coagulable nitrogen in the wort and that reduces head retention.

75 mins with medium boil, just like my other recipes. I skim the foam during boil, just like my other recipes. This recipe is blond and hoppy, about 3,7% abv, but this happened with an oatmeal stout of 5+% abv too. I also brewed this recipe 1 year ago without the flakes and turned out fine. I added the flakes because I had them spare and I wanted some extra head retention (DOH!!).
I also added 2 pictures of an IPA I brewed 6 months ago: clean with great head retention.

Cheers from Italy!
Piteko

 

[Queequeg]

I could understand with oats as they have a high oil content. But I have always got good head retention with flaked barely.

 

[mabrungard]

Unless you are brewing at high elevation and using a high percentage of pils malt in your grist, there is little reason to boil longer than an hour. In addition, you only need to simmer for the first half of the boil with the kettle fully covered. That period is the SMM conversion stage. You then uncover the kettle and boost the heat to a lightly rolling boil to expel all DMS. DMS is easy to get out of wort and you don't have to boil long and hard.

 

[user 70770]

This is interesting. I experienced the same issue with my latest beer. It’s basically an English pale ale with MO as the base malt, and I added crystal malt and about half a pound of flakes barley (much less than you). For whatever reason, this beer has notably less head retention compared to past brew which is exactly the opposite of what I’d heard being that flaked grains are supposed to make head retention better.

I ended up accidentally boiling this beer a bit more vigorously than previous brews so I wonder if that’s what caused issues.

 

[piteko]

It’s basically an English pale ale with MO as the base malt, and I added crystal malt and about half a pound of flakes barley (much less than you).

Did you have any issues during the lautering phase?

 

[user 70770]

Did you have any issues during the lautering phase?

None whatsoever. It went very smoothly.

 

[piteko]

I don't understand if it's the flakes that effect directly the head retention or if it's the flakes that give me a stuck lautering and that is what effects the head retention. During the lautering I use my long inox scoop to move the grains. The lautering is slower but I finish this without particular problems.

Apart from that (recipe and lautering) I don't see any other change in my process (this is my 91th brew, it's a well known process now). This is driving me crazy...

Anyway, I'm coldcrushing the beer and I will dryhop it. I hope the extra hops will help mitigating the problem, we'll see.

Cheers from Italy!
Piteko

 

[user 70770]

I started reading around about the use of flaked grains and here's what I gathered so far. Common knowledge seems to indicate that flaked grains (oats, barley and wheat) "help" head retention, especially when brewing beer with lower protein content. However, the other thing that those grains introduce is lipids (especially oats). Now I reckon that at low levels of flaked grains (say <5% of the grain bill), the protein added really helps with head retention. However when adding more flaked grains, you start introducing too much fatty lipids which kill head retention. This just a theory and frankly I don't have a lot of experience brewing with flaked grains (only done maybe 3-4 beers with flaked barley). But I'd like to hear if somebody has had success with brewing with large amounts of flaked grains and still have excellent head retention.