"Toasty" lager style?

[BroomVikin]

I'm not typically a big light lager fan but recently I've tried a few Helles lagers that I've really liked. One such example is Victory Brewing's Helles. I think what I liked about it is that it somehow seemed a little more toasty than others and not quite as sweet as some. My question is this, while searching the HBT recipe database is there a style of lager that tends to be more toasty in flavor? Maybe I'm splitting hairs but I'm not wanting any roastiness (think stouts or porters) but more of a nutty, toasty flavor.

 

[BigEd]

Unlike many of the American made German-style beers Victory actually uses German malts and hops in their versions. That might explain the enhanced flavor you tasted compared to other beers. A German style beer made with North American two-row malt and enhanced with specialty malt to kick up the flavor will never be able to match the underlying flavor profile IMO. So, it's not so much the style but what you make it with.

 

[BroomVikin]

Unlike many of the American made German-style beers Victory actually uses German malts and hops in their versions. That might explain the enhanced flavor you tasted compared to other beers. A German style beer made with North American two-row malt and enhanced with specialty malt to kick up the flavor will never be able to match the underlying flavor profile IMO. So, it's not so much the style but what you make it with.

That would make sense. Besides a good German 2 row what else might I use? Some biscuit malt maybe?

 

[homebrewer_99]

For a toasty flavor you would use Victory or Biscuit malt. I think there's about 6 oz of biscuit in a Fat Tire clone.

 

[BigEd]

"Besides a good German 2 row what else might I use? Some biscuit malt maybe?"

I would argue that all you need for malt is some good, German pilsner malt. The ingredients are the same as a German pils, just at a different ratio and with a softer, malt-forward Bavarian yeast. You really don't need any accessory malts to make a good Helles. Helles are, however, a tricky beer to make. Even more than other lagers, the subtle flavors and low hop rates give absolutely no room to hide mistakes.

If you feel it can't be done without specialty malts stick to a small dose (3%)of European Biscuit or maybe use 5-10% Vienna malt along with the pilsner.

 

[seabrew8]

"Besides a good German 2 row what else might I use? Some biscuit malt maybe?"

I would argue that all you need for malt is some good, German pilsner malt. The ingredients are the same as a German pils, just at a different ratio and with a softer, malt-forward Bavarian yeast. You really don't need any accessory malts to make a good Helles. Helles are, however, a tricky beer to make. Even more than other lagers, the subtle flavors and low hop rates give absolutely no room to hide mistakes.

If you feel it can't be done without specialty malts stick to a small dose (3%)of European Biscuit or maybe use 5-10% Vienna malt along with the pilsner.

I'm not typically a big light lager fan but recently I've tried a few Helles lagers that I've really liked. One such example is Victory Brewing's Helles. I think what I liked about it is that it somehow seemed a little more toasty than others and not quite as sweet as some. My question is this, while searching the HBT recipe database is there a style of lager that tends to be more toasty in flavor? Maybe I'm splitting hairs but I'm not wanting any roastiness (think stouts or porters) but more of a nutty, toasty flavor.

You don't like light lagers!! Your drinking the wrong ones!!

 

[triethylborane]

Ayinger Celebrator has some toasty, bread elements sort of like a nut bread, rich dense bread flavor with a hint of fig sweetness from the malts IMHO.

 

[BigEd]

Ayinger Celebrator has some toasty, bread elements sort of like a nut bread, rich dense bread flavor with a hint of fig sweetness from the malts IMHO.

You have me drooling like Homer Simpson. Celebrator is just a luscious beer.

 

[beermanpete]

The Liberty Brewing website says they use Pilsner malt. No other malt is listed.

http://www.victorybeer.com/beers/victorylager/

 

[BroomVikin]

I would argue that all you need for malt is some good, German pilsner malt. The ingredients are the same as a German pils, just at a different ratio and with a softer, malt-forward Bavarian yeast.

It seems like with so few ingredients (it's darn near a SMaSH) the yeast would be critical. Would something like WY2308 or WLP838 be appropriate?

 

[dmtaylor]

Make a dunkles. Use German Munich malt. Toasty.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Ayinger Celebrator has some toasty, bread elements sort of like a nut bread, rich dense bread flavor with a hint of fig sweetness from the malts IMHO.

I've gotten "tipsy" in Aying a few times. (I used to live 40 miles from Munich).

 

[BigEd]

"It seems like with so few ingredients (it's darn near a SMaSH) the yeast would be critical. Would something like WY2308 or WLP838 be appropriate?"

The yeast choice is critical for many beers, especially so with delicate lagers. BTW just because a beer has a long list of ingredients doesn't make it better than one with a short list.

Those are both very good choices. Be forewarned that a diacetyl rest might be necessary. Other strains that would work well are WLP820, WLP833, WLP860, and WLP940 (don't let the name on the 940 fool you, it's a legit yeast). Others from Wyeast would be WY2308 and WY2633.

 

[triethylborane]

Another consideration is the mash. Decoction mashing, step mashing (decoction is a form of step mashing) or you will see recipes that use weyermann melanoidin to get the same "decoction flavor" which sort of reminds me of grape nuts cereal.

I do some decoction mashing for lagers and hefeweizens, but not always. Ive never performed a triangle test with a decoction, melanoidin malt, or a hef/lager with neither decoction or melanoidin, so I cant speak to the efficacy or validity of the decoction or melanoidin (though with wheat malt decoction does help break down gluten chains).

As for "lager" yeast my favorite is WLP820 Oktoberfest/Marzen, which is also Fermentis-Safale 34/70. Ive used WLP820 for bocks, ofest, helles, and now for rauchbier. Great yeast.

 

[dmtaylor]

As for "lager" yeast my favorite is WLP820 Oktoberfest/Marzen, which is also Fermentis-Safale 34/70. Ive used WLP820 for bocks, ofest, helles, and now for rauchbier. Great yeast.

While your opinion is as valid as anyone else's... I couldn't disagree more. Those two yeasts are not the same, and in my opinion, both are the worst lager yeasts on the market today. Try Wyeast 2206 and you won't be sorry.

 

[triethylborane]

While your opinion is as valid as anyone else's... I couldn't disagree more. Those two yeasts are not the same, and in my opinion, both are the worst lager yeasts on the market today. Try Wyeast 2206 and you won't be sorry.

http://mrmalty.com/white-labs.php

Dunno if the information there is wrong

 

[dmtaylor]

There's discrepant information all over the interwebs. Several other websites claim W-34/70 is the same as WLP830, and that 2206 and WLP820 are the same. But if you brew with each of these, you'll have 4 totally different beers.

I have my doubts that ANY "equivalent" yeasts are in fact truly equivalent.

Here is another compilation of partially erroneous or misleading data:

www.homebrewtalk.com/attachments/f12/131784d1372453025-dry-yeast-liquid-yeast-equivalents-yeast_table_lefreek_20130628.pdf

 

[seabrew8]

It seems like with so few ingredients (it's darn near a SMaSH) the yeast would be critical. Would something like WY2308 or WLP838 be appropriate?

I'm no lager expect but i'm drinking a tasty and toasty lager now . Since i don't have great temp control i believe my beer/system is better with some extra malts.

In this case - which i might actually turn into my house beer the malt bill is:

83% Pilsner
15% Munich 10
2% Melanoidin

Nice gold colour. I used saaz for this batch 60min and 10min to about 23-25 IBU.

34/70 yeast

I now have a sack of bestmaltz dark munich and i will be getting a sack of pilsner from germany next time i'm home has well - i'm a sailor. That should be interesting!

Just made a marzen with 45% bestmaltz dark munich and i'm not sure if its in my head, maybe, but it smelled amazing! when i was getting the malt bill ready.

 

[Queequeg]

Either a Vienna malt or amber Keller springs to mine. Neither contain toasted malts but both are more biscuity than a helles.

Both contain a good quantity of Vienna or Munich malts. Malt quality is of utmost importance. Barke malts are a good choice.

 

[Pappers_]

As for "lager" yeast my favorite is WLP820 Oktoberfest/Marzen, which is also Fermentis-Safale 34/70. Ive used WLP820 for bocks, ofest, helles, and now for rauchbier. Great yeast.

I'll weigh in on this too - one of my best friends who brews mostly lagers loves WLP820 for bocks, marzens and octoberfests.

 

[Pappers_]

Make a dunkles. Use German Munich malt. Toasty.

That's a great suggestion. Also, a Vienna lager.

 

[Smellyglove]

I think a Dunkel I made a few months ago is one of the best beers I've ever made, it's close up there to the best beers I've ever had, too.

99% European Munich 25EBC and 1% chocolate malt. And process for a such naked beer is also almost 99% of the beer.