Those who've moved from bottling to kegging - warm/cold conditioning time questions

[Rev2010]

I've been bottling for almost 4 years and have just moved to kegging. Had a thread recently about two kegged beers which tasted bad initially but are *slowly* improving. I've now come to see it simply must be a green beer taste. So, in the past I would bottle a week after the top of my beer has fully cleared in the fermenter. For most beers this has been three weeks since after two weeks the krausen had fallen and the top of the beer was clear. For some others it would be 4 weeks, etc. Now, when I bottled I would typically allow 3 weeks in the bottle then put them into the fridge. Often, even after a week in the fridge the beer wouldn't taste fully conditioned and I've found typically 2 weeks in the fridge was ideal.

The information I am seeking from those that used to bottle and now keg is what adjustments have you made to reach the same result? With bottling I would figure the first week is primarily the yeast eating the priming sugar then the next two weeks warm conditioning. Then some cold conditioning in the fridge. What I'm trying to figure out is whether I should now leave the beer in the fermenter longer to get that warm conditioning phase before kegging. Have you all found you need to extend your primary times by one week? Two weeks? More? Can the warm conditioning phase be skipped with some longer cold conditioning?

Basically, I'd hoped that kegging could slightly shorten the "time to drink" rather than extend it. It's not the reason I switched, I switched because bottling is more a PITA, so I'm not looking for some magic solution to speeding up "time to drink". I'm more concerned of course with the beer tasting the best it can be. I just would like to avoid going through more trial and error if others have some good info that can help me get right on track. Thanks!


Rev.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Many folks "prime" their beer in the keg, same as a giant bottle, and let them sit "warm" while waiting for a spot to open up in the keezer.

Same as bottling your beer, and conditioning "warm" for 3 weeks, before chilling them, I would think.

They say they use about 2/3 the amount of sugar, as they normally would, ( for a 5 gallon batch), for bottling, best I recall.

Lots on here on the subject......."keg priming" should find it for ya'.

 

[doug293cz]

I've been bottling for almost 4 years and have just moved to kegging. Had a thread recently about two kegged beers which tasted bad initially but are *slowly* improving. I've now come to see it simply must be a green beer taste. So, in the past I would bottle a week after the top of my beer has fully cleared in the fermenter. For most beers this has been three weeks since after two weeks the krausen had fallen and the top of the beer was clear. For some others it would be 4 weeks, etc. Now, when I bottled I would typically allow 3 weeks in the bottle then put them into the fridge. Often, even after a week in the fridge the beer wouldn't taste fully conditioned and I've found typically 2 weeks in the fridge was ideal.

The information I am seeking from those that used to bottle and now keg is what adjustments have you made to reach the same result? With bottling I would figure the first week is primarily the yeast eating the priming sugar then the next two weeks warm conditioning. Then some cold conditioning in the fridge. What I'm trying to figure out is whether I should now leave the beer in the fermenter longer to get that warm conditioning phase before kegging. Have you all found you need to extend your primary times by one week? Two weeks? More? Can the warm conditioning phase be skipped with some longer cold conditioning?

Basically, I'd hoped that kegging could slightly shorten the "time to drink" rather than extend it. It's not the reason I switched, I switched because bottling is more a PITA, so I'm not looking for some magic solution to speeding up "time to drink". I'm more concerned of course with the beer tasting the best it can be. I just would like to avoid going through more trial and error if others have some good info that can help me get right on track. Thanks!


Rev.

Conditioning is a bunch of chemical reactions occurring in the beer. In general, the rate of chemical reactions double to triple for each 10º C temperature increase. So conditioning at room temperature (~20-22º C) will be significantly faster than at kegging temperatures (~3-7º C.)

Carbonation is usually done to a specific number of "volumes" of CO2 depending on style. Since the solubility of CO2 is higher at lower temperatures, the pressure needed to reach a particular volume of dissolved CO2 will be lower at lower temperatures, and higher at higher temperatures. The chart below (from http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php) shows equilibrium volumes of CO2 at various temperatures and pressures.

So If you were targeting 2.5 volumes, you could achieve this with ~12 psi at 40º F. You could also achieve it with ~29 psi at 65º F. Using "set and forget" forced carbing, it takes about 3 weeks to get close to equilibrium. CO2 solubility is higher at lower temperatures, but diffusion is faster at higher temperatures. Not sure if carbing at room temp would be faster or slower than at serving temperature, but I suspect if might be faster if the pressure is high enough. Carbing at room temperature would allow the conditioning reactions to occur faster. If you were going to carb at room temp. You should disconnect the keg from the gas after carbing has finished, cool the keg, and then reconnect at serving temp when the keg is cold.

Think about it.

Brew on

 

[govner1]

Many folks "prime" their beer in the keg, same as a giant bottle, and let them sit "warm" while waiting for a spot to open up in the keezer.

Same as bottling your beer, and conditioning "warm" for 3 weeks, before chilling them, I would think.

They say they use about 2/3 the amount of sugar, as they normally would, ( for a 5 gallon batch), for bottling, best I recall.

Lots on here on the subject......."keg priming" should find it for ya'.

I keg condition most of my beers ( lagers excluded for obvious reasons). I use about .75 oz priming sugar/my orr gallon. I dissolve in 2 cups of water & boil for about 4 minutes then chill in a bowl of ice. Pour into keg & purge keg w/ CO2. Rack beer to keg then reseal w/ CO2.
I leave at room temperature for 10-14 days then cold crash until there's a spot in the kegerator.



Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[paperairplane]

For most normal ales, I do 3 weeks in primary. Cold crash for 24-48 hours. Beer is now at keezer temp ~40*F, keg the beer and burst carb at 20-30 psi for 1 day, then set at service pressure for 1 week. That's grain to glass in 30 days.

Make good clean beer and you don't need more than about a month for it to be on point.

 

[Peyope]

I'm sorry if this takes the thread off topic but why keg condition? Are there any advantages over simply hooking the beer up to CO2 at the desired pressure (other than not having an available slot on the distributor)?

 

[dobes]

One thing that helped improve my beer ended up being very unintentional. At one point I was backed up by about 40 gallons. What this did for me was not force me to be patient, but not have to worry about getting my beer ready to drink to quick. I ended up letting beers sit for as long as 6 weeks in the primary before kegging/bottling. (Not against secondary but only use it if necessary) I don't prime my kegs but force carb, set and let sit for at least 2 weeks before i drink. I usually cold crash my beers before i keg them but not always.
So if this can help you at all, and i know things work differently for everybody(a ton of different factors come into play), but my schedule for an average (<1.060) beer is usually 3 weeks in the primary, cold crash for about a week(not that i think its necessary but that's how my schedule works), then transfer to keg and let it sit for at least 2 weeks before i tap it.
That is about 6 weeks for a beer and i don't get any green beer taste with my schedule and this is probably the earliest i drink my beers. Usually it is about 2 months before i actually tap a keg.

 

[Rev2010]

Carbonation is usually done to a specific number of "volumes" of CO2 depending on style.

With all respect, I've been brewing for 4 years, I know all about carbonating, the included chart for psi etc. I'm merely new to kegging and was asking about any differences/adjustments people have made going from bottle carbing to keg force carbing being bottle conditioning has it's own natural warm conditioning phase as opposed to kegging a beer and instantly chilling it whilst force carbing.

@Govner1 - I'm fine with the idea of keg priming, just wondering if some more time in the primary would give the equivalent of the bottling warm conditioning phase. I also would rather avoid the trial and error of matching the carbonation level since I've read the same. Actually, I've read some say 1/2 the amount of usual priming sugar and others say 2/3rd's. Still seems like a learning stage I'd prefer to avoid unless I need to.

@paperairplane - I think I have been making good clean beer. I'm clean, sanitary, I follow all usual procedures, etc. For my recent pumpkin ale I even used my new kegerator as a fermentation chamber to keep the fermentation temp at a constant 64 degrees. Not sure what else I can do outside of filtering to make a grain to glass in 4 weeks, but alas that isn't my goal anyhow. Time isn't really that much an issue. The issue was I'd thought with kegging I didn't need the same amount of time as bottling since I wasn't sugar priming but am finding that extra conditioning time made a noticeable difference compared to kegging and putting it my kegerator at 36 degrees force carbing for 2 weeks.

Just simply trying to find the right balance between fermenter time and kegging time now that I'm not bottling and having it at room temp for 3 weeks in the bottle and a week or two in the fridge.


Rev.

 

[chickypad]

I haven't extended the primary length going from bottling to kegging, but I do age certain styles in kegs at room temp. With keg lube on the lid O ring and a blast of CO2 mine seem to keep their seal fine while aging. I guess this only works if you have extra kegs that you don't mind tying up.

 

[doug293cz]

With all respect, I've been brewing for 4 years, I know all about carbonating, the included chart for psi etc. I'm merely new to kegging and was asking about any differences/adjustments people have made going from bottle carbing to keg force carbing being bottle conditioning has it's own natural warm conditioning phase as opposed to kegging a beer and instantly chilling it whilst force carbing.

No disrespect intended, and I'm not trying to insult anyone's intelligence. I have not seen any previous posts about doing room temp conditioning and forced carbing at the same time (that doesn't mean there aren't any of course.) If a beer needs time to condition, it should happen faster at warmer temps. Just trying to describe a way to minimize the overall condition + force carb time by doing them concurrently rather than sequentially. This would give an effect and time similar to keg priming. I just wanted to make the description complete enough that it would be standalone, and not be dependent on a bunch of piecemeal information scattered around this and other threads.

Brew on

 

[TAK]

I was going to offer this... I noticed my biggest change in grain-to-glass, not after switching to kegs, but improving my temp control. Before temp control was the only time I ever had "green," or unconditioned, tasting beer. With good temp control (plus the benefit of force carbing), I can go from grain to glass in 2-3 weeks with pristine tasting ale.

But, I saw you posted that you use a ferm chamber at 64F. Still though, I use a ferm wrap for up-control and fridge for down-control. If your fridge temp is stable, but your beer temp isn't as much so, improvement in that area may help.

 

[Rev2010]

If a beer needs time to condition, it should happen faster at warmer temps.

True, but there's a difference between warm conditioning and cold conditioning. For example, you can let a beer condition in the fermenter for several weeks after fermentation ends, but after carbing if you stick the bottles in the fridge and drink them two days in they won't be as ready tasting as if you had them in the fridge for 2 weeks.

So, I'm really just trying to figure out what to tweak in my process. I'm guessing two additional weeks in the fermenter should replicate the warm conditioning phase that occurs whilst bottle carbing no? Then two weeks force carbing at 36 or so degrees then drink. Just curious to see if any other keggers had to extend the time in their fermenter or secondary to allow for the warm conditioning phase that generally occurs when bottle priming. Or, can the beer be kegged at the same basic time one would bottle but then just let it cold condition longer in the kegerator?

I had my system down perfectly with bottling, just trying to make the adjustment for kegging since the two beers I kegged still have a green taste to them.


Rev.

 

[doug293cz]

True, but there's a difference between warm conditioning and cold conditioning. For example, you can let a beer condition in the fermenter for several weeks after fermentation ends, but after carbing if you stick the bottles in the fridge and drink them two days in they won't be as ready tasting as if you had them in the fridge for 2 weeks.Rev.

Sounds like a good experiment to run. Take two bottles from the same bottling run, place one in the refrigerator for two weeks, and leave the other out at room temp. Then after two weeks, place the second bottle in the frig. Taste both side by side after two days. This is probably something we should all do for ourselves so we better understand the taste differences. Reading about them just isn't the same.

I thought most of what was going on after refrigeration (that wouldn't occur at higher temps) was precipitation, coagulation and settling. Does anyone have any specific information about conditioning reactions that are favored by lower temperatures vs. higher?

Brew on

 

[Flipadelphia]

Your question totally depends on the style of beer you're making. There is no universal answer you seek, sorry.

 

[Rev2010]

Your question totally depends on the style of beer you're making. There is no universal answer you seek, sorry.

Oh trust me I know it depends on the beer in question and several other factors. Not looking for a magic key answer, just looking to see in what ways others have adjusted their conditioning timings between bottling and kegging. I mean, does everyone have no problems with kegging a beer from the fermenter then just taking the time to force carb then drink straight away with no green tastes? So far it looks to me like I may need to keg it (or keep in the fermenter) for two weeks at room temp then put it in the kegerator and carb before drinking. Going straight from the fermenter, at my normal bottle timing, into the keg right into 36-37 degrees while force carbing for two weeks definitely gave me a green tasting beer - two of them actually. I have the cream of three crops ale in the fermenter, been planning on leaving in the fermenter at least one more week before kegging to avoid this happening again.


Rev.