THE GREAT BEER SWINDLE (AKA i want all my half ounces back)

[sweetcell]

ladies, gentlemen - it may be time to take up arms against The Beer Establishment.

looking at a bottle of beer upon which it was written "12 oz", i noted the headspace in the full bottle and asked myself:

a) are there 12 oz of beer in a 12.5 oz bottle, or
b) is it 11.5 oz of beer in a 12 oz bottle?

to find out, i filled an empty bottle to the brim with water, then poured the contents into a measuring cup... it was 12 oz on the dot.

THAT MEANS THE BEER COMPANIES HAVE BEEN LYING TO US. they haven't been selling us 12 oz of beer as printed on the bottles, they've been selling us 12 oz containers. well, you don't see cereal makers claiming to sell us 1 cubic foot of cereal - no, they have to list the quantity of useful product we are buying, not the theoretical maximum that the box could possibly contain. why are beer companies allowed to get away with this deceptive practice??? when i buy a 12 oz bottle of beer, i demand 12 oz of actual beer!

alternately, one could say that the beer companies are charging us for the headspace. lightly pressurized CO2? they expect us to pay for that? really?!? if that is part of the offering, why isn't it listed on the label? "Contents: 11.5 fl oz of beer, and 0.5 fl oz of Carbon Dioxide @ 2.3 volumes" would be truthful, but Big Beer has the regulators in their back pocket.

some people might say "eh, a half ounce - who cares?". well, kind sir, if you've drunk the amount of beer that i have, all those half-oz add up to a lot. A HELL OF A LOT.

i, for one, will not stand for this. henceforth, i shall protest this injustice by only brewing my own beer, depriving these scoundrels of my hard-earned money. and i shall fill my bottle all the way to the top, obviously!!!

RISE UP! :rockin:

 

[Channel66]

Rdwhahb?

 

[david_42]

And 95% of the 'pints' poured in the USA are closer to 14 oz. I think we need to adopt the Euro system with larger glasses that have fill lines on them.

 

[weirdboy]

Yeah for me the 14oz shaker "pints" are more egregious, and relevant.

 

[dinnerstick]

And 95% of the 'pints' poured in the USA are closer to 14 oz. I think we need to adopt the Euro system with larger glasses that have fill lines on them.

have you ever seen a dutch beer? it's a thimble, generally half beer and half foam. i gotta get me to germany. did i just say that? that can't be right either

 

[Qhrumphf]

http://honestpintproject.org/

Won't help you much with your bottles, but as far as bar/pub pints go...

 

[BigBeer4All]

well at least the belgian are honest folk. all my belgian bottles say 11.2 oz.

 

[Dan]

Ironic timing of this thread. Last night i weighed an empty beer bottle, tared the scale and then weighed 4 unopened bottles of commercial beer. The lowest read 12.45 oz and highest read 12.55oz. Not sure if an ounce and liquid ounce are the same. But I thought, pretty cool they give us a bit more than 12.

 

[aubiecat]

Ironic timing of this thread. Last night i weighed an empty beer bottle, tared the scale and then weighed 4 unopened bottles of commercial beer. The lowest read 12.45 oz and highest read 12.55oz. Not sure if an ounce and liquid ounce are the same. But I thought, pretty cool they give us a bit more than 12.

Fluid oz. are different from dry oz.
1 US gallon is 128 fluid oz. while it weights 133.6 dry oz.

sweetcell actually did it the correct way.

 

[Dan]

Fluid oz. are different from dry oz.
1 US gallon is 128 fluid oz. while it weights 133.6 dry oz.

sweetcell actually did it the correct way.

Thanks Aubiecat! I suspected I was off track on that one. Should have looked it up.

 

[Bigbeavk]

A fluid oz weighed with water will be less weight than beer. Bring me a couple sixers and I'll prove it.

 

[sweetcell]

Rdwhahb?

this is a serious matter. i shan't relax. i shan't not worry. i will, however, have a homebrew - a glass of my Mini-Wheat is currently effervescing beside me. <gulp> well... it was.

well at least the belgian are honest folk. all my belgian bottles say 11.2 oz.

bad news - the conspiracy is international. belgian 11.2 oz bottles are 11.2 total volume - you're getting 10.8 oz of beer in there (or whatever the exact number is...). just tested it by pouring a Duvel and a Maredsous into a regular 12 oz, didn't make it to the top.

Fluid oz. are different from dry oz.
1 US gallon is 128 fluid oz. while it weights 133.6 dry oz.

right, he was thinking of ounce the weight (like "an ounce of hops"), not ounce the volume ("a shot is one ounce of booze"). the Beer Conspirators are hidding behind the imperial system to confuse and separate us. don't let it come between us - quick, everyone switch to metric!!!

and a fluid ounce's weight is going to depend on what it is a fluid ounce of... a fl oz of mercury is going to be heavier than a fl oz of water.

 

[BearPusher]

oh my god... this just blew my mind Funny thing, I was just pondering the exact same thing last weekend and was going to start measuring the bottle volumes.

 

[thetragichero]

good thing i have four cases of homebrew in my beer closet

 

[danorocks17]

I wonder if the Euro laws are in place because of the absurdly high alcohol taxes

 

[OG2620]

Contents settled during shipping.

 

[motobrewer]

fill levels are actually highly regulated.

 

[ktblunden]

"Contents: 11.5 fl oz of beer, and 0.5 fl oz of Carbon Dioxide @ 2.3 volumes"

I think I'll start labeling my beers this way. If nothing else it will be amusing.

 

[Calichusetts]

well at least the belgian are honest folk. all my belgian bottles say 11.2 oz.

Moretti from Italy is also 11.2
I really like the bottles too

 

[zeg]

I measured a Sam Adams bottle by carefully measuring 12 oz and pouring it in. It reached the bottom of the bulge at the top of the neck, leaving something like 1/2 inch gap.

If the weight measurement posted upthread is right, that's interesting. At the nominal room temperature density of water, 12 fluid ounces comes out to about 12.5 ounces weight.

(incidentally, at its boiling point, 1 fluid ounce of water weighs 1 ounce)

 

[aubiecat]

Fluid oz. are different from dry oz.
1 US gallon is 128 fluid oz. while it weights 133.6 dry oz.

sweetcell actually did it the correct way.

EDIT, sorry I should have said 1 US gallon of water is 128 fluid oz. while it weights 133.6 dry oz.
Certainly different liquids have different densities. My point was that liquid oz. and dry oz. aren't the same. A liquid oz. is a measure of volume and a dry oz. is a measure of weight.

 

[sweetcell]

I measured a Sam Adams bottle by carefully measuring 12 oz and pouring it in. It reached the bottom of the bulge at the top of the neck, leaving something like 1/2 inch gap.

If the weight measurement posted upthread is right, that's interesting. At the nominal room temperature density of water, 12 fluid ounces comes out to about 12.5 ounces weight.

so you measured 12 oz of weight (not fluid ounces), and it didn't fill the bottle? need to look into that...

edit: 12 dry ounces of water (weight) almost fills the bottle to the right spot but not quite. considering that beer is denser than water, that means the fill line of 12 dry ounces would fall even lower. so either the conspiracy is still alive (the bottles do contain 12 fluid ounces, exactly), or the Industrial-Beer Complex has actually been giving up more than 12 ounces of beer by weight. considering they are selling us a liquid, i'm inclined to go with the conspiracy-is-still-alive option.

(incidentally, at its boiling point, 1 fluid ounce of water weighs 1 ounce)

at boiling? that doesn't sound right...

1 imperial fluid ounce = 1 avoirdupois ounce of water at 62 °F (16.7 °C)
1 US fluid ounce = 1.041 avoirdupois ounce (29.5 g) of water at 62 °F (16.7 °C)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_ounce

 

[Beerrific]

Most bottles that US breweries use are not 12 oz to the top. You need to check this again. Most are 12 oz filled roughly 2 inches below the top of the crown. Also, the TTB requires the net contents to be labeled, so it is 12 oz of liquid.

You are right. It is serious, and most breweries monitor this (or should) and so does the TTB.

EDIT: And all this is by volume. Weight has nothing to do with it.

 

[zeg]

so you measured 12 oz of weight (not fluid ounces), and it didn't fill the bottle? need to look into that...

edit: 12 dry ounces of water (weight) almost fills the bottle to the right spot but not quite. considering that beer is denser than water, that means the fill line of 12 dry ounces would fall even lower. so either the conspiracy is still alive (the bottles do contain 12 fluid ounces, exactly), or the Industrial-Beer Complex has actually been giving up more than 12 ounces of beer by weight. considering they are selling us a liquid, i'm inclined to go with the conspiracy-is-still-alive option.

Sorry, despite my checking I left out the word "fluid" right at the start. I measured 12 fluid ounces. I used a measuring cup and if I erred, I erred toward slightly overfilling. Point is, I can't reproduce the "filled all the way to the top is exactly 12 fluid ounces" observation.

Also, beer that has a 1.010 final gravity is only 1% denser than water, so this isn't a concern at the level we're talking about.

at boiling? that doesn't sound right...

1 imperial fluid ounce = 1 avoirdupois ounce of water at 62 °F (16.7 °C)
1 US fluid ounce = 1.041 avoirdupois ounce (29.5 g) of water at 62 °F (16.7 °C)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_ounce

It's correct. Water becomes less dense as you heat it, so one fluid ounce will weigh less at boiling than one fluid ounce at room temperature. See the chart here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water#Density_of_water_and_ice

From the chart, at 15°C (close to 16.7°C), the density is 999.1026 kg/m^3. At 100°C (boiling) it's 958.4 kg/m^3, or 95.9% of the 15°C density. Thus, using your value of 1.041 ounces per fluid ounce at 62°F, this is about 1.041*0.959 = 0.999 ounces at boiling (or, really, just a hair below boiling).

A volume measurement is incomplete unless the temperature is specified. If the bottle were filled at 80°C with exactly 12.00 fluid ounces, that is 12.15 ounces by weight. If you then chill it to 4°C and measure its volume, you'll have 11.67 fluid ounces.

 

[Qhrumphf]

It's correct. Water becomes less dense as you heat it, so one fluid ounce will weigh less at boiling than one fluid ounce at room temperature. See the chart here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water#Density_of_water_and_ice

From the chart, at 15°C (close to 16.7°C), the density is 999.1026 kg/m^3. At 100°C (boiling) it's 958.4 kg/m^3, or 95.9% of the 15°C density. Thus, using your value of 1.041 ounces per fluid ounce at 62°F, this is about 1.041*0.959 = 0.999 ounces at boiling (or, really, just a hair below boiling).

A volume measurement is incomplete unless the temperature is specified. If the bottle were filled at 80°C with exactly 12.00 fluid ounces, that is 12.15 ounces by weight. If you then chill it to 4°C and measure its volume, you'll have 11.67 fluid ounces.

Without speaking to the specific data, the problem of S-type airlocks and suckback while cold-crashing/lagering illustrates the principle. Also illustrated in the volume reduction in the kettle post-boil between flame out and after chilling the wort.

 

[zeg]

Without speaking to the specific data, the problem of S-type airlocks and suckback while cold-crashing/lagering illustrates the principle. Also illustrated in the volume reduction in the kettle post-boil between flame out and after chilling the wort.

Exactly. Volume is not a conserved quantity, so it's kind of silly to package things by volume. This is also similar to why we're all supposed to be measuring our ingredients by weight and why our hydrometers need to be corrected for the temperature of the liquid we're measuring.

Incidentally, I take back my earlier comment about the beer vs water density being negligible. It's about 1%, vs about 5% for temperature-induced variations. So it's not really negligible, just not the largest factor.

 

[Grinnan5150]

Do you think this conspiracy has anything to do with the Kennedy assasination? How far deep do you think this runs?

 

[malevolent]

density of water < density of beer. So the same volume of beer will weigh more than the same volume of water.

 

[ajlee]

do you think this conspiracy has anything to do with the kennedy assasination? How far deep do you think this runs?

lol!!

 

[Qhrumphf]

Exactly. Volume is not a conserved quantity, so it's kind of silly to package things by volume. This is also similar to why we're all supposed to be measuring our ingredients by weight and why our hydrometers need to be corrected for the temperature of the liquid we're measuring.

Incidentally, I take back my earlier comment about the beer vs water density being negligible. It's about 1%, vs about 5% for temperature-induced variations. So it's not really negligible, just not the largest factor.

This goes for just about everything as far as I'm concerned, why they always have to specify in cooking they want a "cup of flour" loose, not packed. Should be by weight, not volume, and problem solved.

Gas stations (at least around here) are all printed that the amount is dispensed by volume, without temperature correction. So when it's really hot out, you're getting less gas for your money.

I've been of the mindset for a long time that both recipes and sale should ONLY use weight, never volume. And it should all go to metric, while we're at it...

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

So I just poured a "12oz" into a 500ml graduated cylinder (+/-5%) and guess what the result was...

360ml and it weighed 359g... according to my math:

360ml / 29.6ml/oz = 12.16oz in my test bottle

*Edit* - a completely full 12oz bottle of water measured around 380ml in the GC and weighed 380ml

Hope everyone is happy... my beer is flat now :-(

 

[OG2620]

I'll preface this reply with, "I'm no expert." But, I just filled a DFH bottle to the top with good old fashioned tap water and measured 13 1/3 oz. in a Pyrex measuring cup. Now I know that I'm not using lab quality/calibrated equipment, but I don't see what all of the fuss is about. It looks like you get what you pay for.

However, it wouldn't be the first time that I missed the point.

Or did the OP have a few too many when measuring?

 

[zeg]

Gas stations (at least around here) are all printed that the amount is dispensed by volume, without temperature correction. So when it's really hot out, you're getting less gas for your money.

Perhaps, although this is complicated by a number of factors (e.g., the gas is stored underground, so it's hard to know how much the air temp affects things). Snopes has an interesting discussion on the topic.

So I just poured a "12oz" into a 500ml graduated cylinder (+/-5%) and guess what the result was...

[...]

Hope everyone is happy... my beer is flat now :-(

I certainly appreciate the sacrifice, but do you really mean +/- 5%? It's only a 4% difference that we're talking about here (about 0.5 fl.oz out of 12 fl.oz)!

 

[Beerrific]

The beer bottling line I have had the opportunity to see in action does not really fill by volume or weight. It fills basically based on fill height. There are adjustable tubes that, when the liquid reaches the tube, it stops filling. So, done. Define the correct fill height and it will come out right each time.

 

[JefeTheVol]

I'll preface this reply with, "I'm no expert." But, I just filled a DFH bottle to the top with good old fashioned tap water and measured 13 1/3 oz. in a Pyrex measuring cup. Now I know that I'm not using lab quality/calibrated equipment, but I don't see what all of the fuss is about. It looks like you get what you pay for.

However, it wouldn't be the first time that I missed the point.

Or did the OP have a few too many when measuring?

Of course you are forgetting that DFH uses the Contrabulous Flabtraption to force more beer into their bottles. :cross:

 

[Newbeerguy]

I would be careful clicking the link in the OP's post.....my Norton is giving me some Intrusion Attempts (Malicious Toolkit Website 5 & 9)

 

[sweetcell]

I would be careful clicking the link in the OP's post.....my Norton is giving me some Intrusion Attempts (Malicious Toolkit Website 5 & 9)

really? crap, i'll go back and edit it out then. nothing turned up on my McAfee, but our web threat protection is only so-so...

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

I certainly appreciate the sacrifice, but do you really mean +/- 5%? It's only a 4% difference that we're talking about here (about 0.5 fl.oz out of 12 fl.oz)!

That is the calibration of the GC... and I transcribed it wrong (the lettering is worn a bit and I assumed the worn bit was a %), when I looked at my other GCs it is actually a +/- in ML not %, which makes more sense. Thanks for the catch

 

[brewit2it]

Fluid oz. are different from dry oz.
1 US gallon is 128 fluid oz. while it weights 133.6 dry oz.

sweetcell actually did it the correct way.

Except that he assumed his measuring cup was accurate, which is a big assumption and often not the case.

 

[zeg]

That is the calibration of the GC... and I transcribed it wrong (the lettering is worn a bit and I assumed the worn bit was a %), when I looked at my other GCs it is actually a +/- in ML not %, which makes more sense. Thanks for the catch

NP, that makes more sense. So far, I think this conspiracy may be a bit overblown. The two most reliable measurements in the thread (this volume measure with what sounds like a reliable graduated cylinder, probably more accurate than a kitchen measuring cup) and the weight measurement both point to 12 fl oz being accurate. More data needed, though.