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BlackJaqueJanaviac

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How necessary is a control panel?

I've seen one e-kettle on these forums where a guy just stuck an element through the pot and plugs it into the outlet (110 v).

Could something as simple be done with 220v and say a 5500W element?

Would 5500W be enough to boil 12 gallons of wort?
 
I recently completed my build of http://TheElectricBrewery.com - using kegs instead of Blichmann kettles.

5500W is precisely what is in that system and it will easily boil 15 gallons or more.

Yes, you can do a simple plug-in element, but the problem will be controlling the output.

Not only is unplugging and plugging in an element a bit of a pain in the ass, but it could also be dangerous (arcing, sparks, etc) and is not what a plug is designed for.

At the very minimum you'd want to build some kind of box with a relay and switch to turn the element on and off while keeping the box plugged into the outlet.

That said, I'm totally happy with my Kal build, and sourcing all the parts myself over the past year was a lot of fun and saved me a few bucks.
 
By output control do you mean on-off switch or Hi-Med-Lo control?

I've done switches before. And I imagine a small box with either on-off or a Hi-Med-Lo dial would be simple enough.

Forgive me but I don't know all the lingo on this electric forum.
 
Yes, output control means on-off switching in the simplest terms. What it really means is controlling duty-cycle. Typically, a heating element can be either on or off. You control the amount of heat by switching it on and off quickly. The duty cycle is the percent of time that the heater is on. A typical hi-med-low dial controls the duty cycle via Pulse Width Modulation (PWM). However, since dials usually can't handle 220V and 20+ amps you need a Solid State Relay (SSR) to switch the 220V power to the heater. The dial controls the SSR via lower power circuit.
 
Manually switching a 5500w element is certainly possible, but very impractical for maintaining a boil. For the mash, in an insulated vessel, it is certainly doable.

From a safety perspective, a GFCI is critical.
 
Oh, yeah. I get it. A High setting means the element is on all the time. A low setting means the element is on some fraction of a minute.

So to turn the e-kettle down to a simmer, I would have to sit there and turn it on and off every 30 seconds or so.

Or I have to get into a Solid State Relay and a dial. How tough is that?
 
If all you use the pot for is to bring water temp up to strike. And later to boil wort is there any reason I would need more than simple on-off control?

The only thing I can imagine would be boil-overs. But a Keggle should have adequate headspace to contain things.
 
To keep a constant rolling boil, you need to use some type of device (PID, PWM) to manage what portion of time the element will be on versus off. With a simple on/off switch, you will have no boil when off, and likely too violent a boil when it is on, unless you size the element perfectly for your conditions so that you can leave it on throughout the boil. That is possible, but then you will have an undersized element for bringing water or wort up to temperature quickly.
 
I use a 3800 watt element @ 240v just plugged into a spa panel for my14 gallon pre boil/ 12+ gallon post boil batches- no control needed.
 
Well. Since everyone seems to be using water heater elements, is there any reason a guy couldn't just buy a 30 gallon water heater and scavenge the parts from it? I imagine an electric water heater already has whatever controls needed to adjust temperature.
 
BlackJaqueJanaviac said:
Well. Since everyone seems to be using water heater elements, is there any reason a guy couldn't just buy a 30 gallon water heater and scavenge the parts from it? I imagine an electric water heater already has whatever controls needed to adjust temperature.
Click to expand...

Assuming you could salvage the parts, I have never seen water heater thermostats that could be set anywhere near 212 degrees. Water heater controls have a max temp setting of 130 degrees or so to prevent scalding.
 
BlackJaqueJanaviac said:
Too violent a boil? What are the dangers of that? Anything worse than a boil-over?
Click to expand...

No, but if the element is oversized for the kettle, a boil-over every time is bad enough. You would also be getting more vaporization than necessary, so you would either have to start with a higher water volume, or add water after the boil to hit your target gravity. This would put more moisture into the room if you are brewing indoors, so might lead you to have to oversize your ventilation system. You would also be consuming more electricity than necessary.

Again, if the element is sized appropriately for the kettle at full power, this is a moot point, but then you will have slower ramp-up times. People do it.

Dert, what kettle (volume, diameter, material) do you use for the boil with your 3800w element (equivalent to setting a 5500w element at 69%)? :)
 
OK. So can someone point me to a "how to" of a truly simple control box? I mean one with just a dial to control the heat. Every time I search this site I get pictures of control boxes that make make me dizzy just looking at the face - let alone the internals and diagrams.

Its got to be possible. I see kitchen stoves all the time with just a dial to control the element output. So why can't a guy do that with a boil kettle? Just a box with Hi-Med-Lo. Seems simple enough but for some reason I feel like I'm the first to think of it.
 
jeffmeh said:
No, but if the element is oversized for the kettle, a boil-over every time is bad enough. You would also be getting more vaporization than necessary, so you would either have to start with a higher water volume, or add water after the boil to hit your target gravity. This would put more moisture into the room if you are brewing indoors, so might lead you to have to oversize your ventilation system. You would also be consuming more electricity than necessary.

Again, if the element is sized appropriately for the kettle at full power, this is a moot point, but then you will have slower ramp-up times. People do it.

Dert, what kettle (volume, diameter, material) do you use for the boil with your 3800w element (equivalent to setting a 5500w element at 69%)? :)
Click to expand...

Just a normal keg

PA030144.jpg


bfabd282.jpg
 
BlackJaqueJanaviac said:
OK. So can someone point me to a "how to" of a truly simple control box? I mean one with just a dial to control the heat. Every time I search this site I get pictures of control boxes that make make me dizzy just looking at the face - let alone the internals and diagrams.

Its got to be possible. I see kitchen stoves all the time with just a dial to control the element output. So why can't a guy do that with a boil kettle? Just a box with Hi-Med-Lo. Seems simple enough but for some reason I feel like I'm the first to think of it.
Click to expand...
Use this from Auber Instruments for your element control:
SSRV - 25A Solid State Voltage Regulator

Be sure to ge it with the rheostat and heat sink.

SSVR25A.jpg
 
BlackJaqueJanaviac said:
OK. So can someone point me to a "how to" of a truly simple control box? I mean one with just a dial to control the heat. Every time I search this site I get pictures of control boxes that make make me dizzy just looking at the face - let alone the internals and diagrams.

Its got to be possible. I see kitchen stoves all the time with just a dial to control the element output. So why can't a guy do that with a boil kettle? Just a box with Hi-Med-Lo. Seems simple enough but for some reason I feel like I'm the first to think of it.
Click to expand...

You're not the first to think of it, we all have. It's just that the circuitry behind how your stove controls output is more complicated than you think (though it's still pretty simple). What everyone is posting here is the circuitry needed to build a controller that does what you are asking at the power levels needed. It's just not as easy as wiring a variable resister (dial) between the element and the power source. If it was, that's what we'd be doing.
 
Although I'm just steeping and boiling. I use a simple on off switch. The first pic was the first e kettle I made. Used a ULWD 2000W 120v SS element in a cheap 5gal Brewers best pot. That was doing partial boils of 3 1/2 gal. The second pic is the new kettle I just built with the same element setup and on off switch GFI of course. I'm still able to boil a full 6gal.




 
FoCobrewguy said:
Would this be what the OP is talking about for a switch that you would manually adjust low to high or does this have the capability to set a temp and walk away?
Click to expand...

It has an analog knob that allows you to control the fast on/off cycling of the element, meaning that turn the dial all the way up and it is on 100% of the time, half way 50% of the time, etc.
 
Come on guys, no reason to confuse people with switching semi conductor concepts like duty cycle.

The knob controls the heating element like a stove knob. Zero to max power. Really easy. I'd also install a beefy enough switch to turn the whole thing completely off. Home Depot sells a thirty amp double pole switch for cheap.

Make sure the kettle is grounded electrically.
 
A 25 amp phase controlled ssr would require a huge heat sink with cooling fan for a 5500w element. I run a 25a ssr with a 2000w element with an oversized heat sink and it gets too hot to touch.

You can search ebay for a cheaper 40a controlled ssr, but after heat sink, potentiometer, and enclosure it might be easier to just get the still Dragon kit
 
So for $31 I can get the StillDragon controller kit that would come with everything I need to wire up a controller to control the heat input on my boil kettle?
 
Just caught up on this thread. Still dragon is the way to go. Wish I would have found that before I bought everything for my build. Everything you need for $31 is a great deal. Everything else will easily be purchased from Home Depot.
 
SookeBrewing said:
That said, I'm totally happy with my Kal build, and sourcing all the parts myself over the past year was a lot of fun and saved me a few bucks.
Click to expand...

Curious to know how much you saved sourcing it yourself vs. buying their pre packed kit (not assembled, just the parts)
 
srice said:
Has anybody actually ordered from these guys?

This is a very elegant and simple solutions. I would definitely add the double pole switch and an outlet so that I could plug my keggle into the control box on brew day.
Click to expand...

Searching ebay, I found that I couldn't beat the prices for the kit by the time I included shipping. The Paypal shopping cart for indicates no shipping charge in the US. I guess I'll pull the trigger on this and report back when the parts show up. (I did bump up to the medium box to give me a little more room to add the switch and the outlet.
 
srice said:
Has anybody actually ordered from these guys?
Click to expand...

I ordered their Triclover element guard and some other TC fittings from them awhile ago. Communication was bad and something was on back order so it took awhile but when I received everything the quality was good.
 
mcangeli said:
Curious to know how much you saved sourcing it yourself vs. buying their pre packed kit (not assembled, just the parts)
Click to expand...

Well - a couple of factors play into my decision to source it myself - so your mileage may vary.

I am in Canada. But my mom lives close to the border of Point Roberts, WA, so I was able to take advantage of free/cheap on Amazon, BargainFittings, etc and have stuff shipped to a mail depot in Point Roberts.

Some of the smaller components (relays, lights, switches, etc) were way cheaper by ordering on Ebay or Amazon.

I used the same PIDs, but opted for the Auber timer instead of the Omega (huge price difference).

So my build is not an exact "clone" but it's pretty close.

The one thing I would totally recommend you buy from Kal even if you're sourcing your own parts would be the wiring kit. I definitely spent more than what he charges for my wire, connectors, etc.

It was a bit of a logistical challenge tracking all the packages and remembering exactly what parts I needed. You also have to have the time to shop around for deals.

I estimate (having given up on keeping exact track) that my control panel, all in, cost me about $700-800 to build.

Oh, and if you don't mind the panel not being exactly like Kal's, go for one of these meters:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/180920422127?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

It does both amps and volts, still looks good, and is WAY easier to install. It also does not require a voltage converter and transformer, and you only need one, so you'll save ~$50 in parts.

I had a lot of trouble with the recommended ammeter (fried a couple of them, and one of the voltage converters). I now have a standalone volt meter and this combo meter in my panel since the holes were already cut.
 

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