Supplementing Roeselare Blend

[reuliss]

I'm planning my first sour brew. I'm very excited, but because of the huge time committment, I really want to get this one right. I was reading Mike T's latest post summarizing the various sour blends on the market: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/commercial-cultures.html

I'm planning on making a Flanders, so I'm gonna go with the Roeselare, or perhaps the White Labs Flemish Ale Blend. My question is this. Mike suggests supplementing with extra bugs to increase sour intensity when using Roeselare on its first pitch. I'm fine doing that, but that begs the question. Should I simply pitch the Roeslare, and then add separate pitches of pure pedio and lacto strains? I'm guessing the ratios of these critters is really important, but I also don't want to overcomplicate this. So, any suggestions for how I can supplement as Mike suggests with additional commercial products?

 

[The_Nid_Hog]

I've brewed a sour stout (basically a clone of the Bruery's Tart of Darkness) with Roeselare and had good results. I don't think that you need to add separate commercial pitches of any bugs--that's the beauty of Roeselare. I did add the dregs from two bottles of Madrugada Obscura and I was very happy with the results. After that, it's all question of patience and time.

I'm planning my first sour brew. I'm very excited, but because of the huge time committment, I really want to get this one right. I was reading Mike T's latest post summarizing the various sour blends on the market: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/commercial-cultures.html

I'm planning on making a Flanders, so I'm gonna go with the Roeselare, or perhaps the White Labs Flemish Ale Blend. My question is this. Mike suggests supplementing with extra bugs to increase sour intensity when using Roeselare on its first pitch. I'm fine doing that, but that begs the question. Should I simply pitch the Roeslare, and then add separate pitches of pure pedio and lacto strains? I'm guessing the ratios of these critters is really important, but I also don't want to overcomplicate this. So, any suggestions for how I can supplement as Mike suggests with additional commercial products?

 

[reuliss]

Did you use roeselare as the primary ferment?


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[reuliss]

Also, what IBUs did you shoot for?


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[dcp27]

Roe produces great beer, but it is absurdly slow to get there on its own. What Mike is suggesting is pitching commercial beer dregs, not more lab bacteria, and I 100% agree. pitch the Roe to start and then as you drink sour beers add the last of the bottles in to get a bigger and more diverse collection of brett/bacteria. theres a thread there with a list of lotsa viable beers to use.

go for like 10-15 IBUs

 

[FredTheNuke]

I'm going to add fruit to my Roeselare 40% wheat Flanders reds at the 6-8 month point for a second bug fermentation and wait another 4-6 months from that point. Hopefully it will be sour enough by then. Now I should be able to fast track that a bit on subsequent pitches onto that yeast cake. I intend to reuse the cake at least 4-5 times (adding fresh Sacc each time, though). I may push a batch until I end up with a bad beer to see how many times you can repitch onto a Roeselare cake.

 

[dcp27]

6-8 months is pretty early in a Roe ferment to add fruit, it's typically barely even be sour at that point.

 

[FredTheNuke]

6-8 months is pretty early in a Roe ferment to add fruit, it's typically barely even be sour at that point.

True but at that point all Sacc yeast is dead. The fruit will be fermented by the bugs only (frozen to crack open fruit cells and kill any surface sacc yeast on the fruit itself). So after a total of 14 months of fermentation hopefully I'll have a decent sour. Thoughts?

 

[dcp27]

what makes you think all the sacc would be dead after 6 months? since the fruit will add a tartness on its own it may have a decent sour at 14 months, but id rather know its reached that point first.

 

[FredTheNuke]

what makes you think all the sacc would be dead after 6 months?

What happens when you don't eat for 5 months?

 

[wingedcoyote]

What happens when you don't eat for 5 months?

I build up energy reserves, go dormant, flocculate to the bottom of my container, and wait for more food to arrive. At least, that's what I would do if I was a yeast. Not saying your plan won't work just fine, but since people have harvested yeast from bottles much more than 5 months old I suspect that there will be some live Sacch in your beer at that point.

 

[dantheman13]

I build up energy reserves, go dormant, flocculate to the bottom of my container, and wait for more food to arrive. At least, that's what I would do if I was a yeast. Not saying your plan won't work just fine, but since people have harvested yeast from bottles much more than 5 months old I suspect that there will be some live Sacch in your beer at that point.

I've had enough Sacch in a sour beer die within 2 months to fail bottle carbonating. This wasn't with Roes, it was with my house blend, which gets very sour. Of course, Fred mentioned that his beer isn't very sour, so the pH may not be low enough to kill the Sacch off completely. I'd say if his pH is under 4.0, assume the Sacch is done.

 

[FredTheNuke]

There we go back to that fancy pH meter I dropped $170 on.... You expect me to actually USE it???

I have the Hanna HI9813-6N. What sucks is the probes are $90 a pop. One dip in a sour and that probe probably needs to be isolated. I doubt the pH probe electrode would take kindly to a bleach or StarSan solution sterilization...

Maybe it doesn't need to be isolated. Typically you throw away the sample anyway.... Hmmm... Who cares if your electrode is contaminated with bacteria... Just like the old days playing with nuclear contamination... You just mark it and don't use it for anything else...

 

[dantheman13]

There we go back to that fancy pH meter I dropped $170 on.... You expect me to actually USE it???

I have the Hanna HI9813-6N. What sucks is the probes are $90 a pop. One dip in a sour and that probe probably needs to be isolated. I doubt the pH probe electrode would take kindly to a bleach or StarSan solution sterilization...

Maybe it doesn't need to be isolated. Typically you throw away the sample anyway.... Hmmm... Who cares if your electrode is contaminated with bacteria... Just like the old days playing with nuclear contamination... You just mark it and don't use it for anything else...

I hear ya. I often just use the strips for a general idea.

 

[BryanThompson]

I've carbed year old 3.4 pH lambics with just sugar in three weeks. You can't be sure the sacc is dead. Also if you bottle that soon with only Roeselare you could end up with bottle bombs. Jolly Pumpkin dregs work fairly quickly though.