I would appreciate suggestions on lowering my FG numbers, I have been doing Three gallon extract batches. Usually OG is around 1.061 area the lowest Fg was 70% the highest was 50%. I usually do forty-five minutes boil with early addition of 3.3 lbs. of lme and 1.5 lbs of dme and 1 lb of specialty grains, I add yeast nutrients, and inject O2 to the wort. I have been using S04, S05, fermentation usually start within hours. The wort is keep between 62-70 degrees for the first two weeks, any suggestions how I can produce a lower FG? Does early addition or late addition produce more or less fermentable sugars? The info on the lme says that it is 80% fermentable, the dme dose not give the percentage of fermentability.
Suggestions on lowering FG?
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Jay, thanks for the reply, yes the percentage is attenuation. I thought I read in a thread here that the extract will caramelize in the boil and produce sugars that are less fermentable. That's why I asked if adding extract late would help in better attenuation.
I know if you add all of your extract early on your beer may come out a little darker due to the LME/DME caramelizing a bit. I've never heard of the sugars becoming less fermentable due to early additions unless you char a bunch in the bottom of the kettle. I never add all of my extract in the beginning. In my IIPA's I add the LME as soon as the boil begins. At the 15min mark I add the DME. Never had an issue and consistently hit my desired OG/FG.
SM, thank's for the response,I do a full boil and add all of the extract in the beginning because I am not worried about darker results because that is the style I am brewing. I am just looking for suggestions on why my FG is in the 70-50% range instead of 75+ range that most people achieve on the site using S04 and S05.
I sometimes have problems with high FG but never quite that high. The issue with extract is you can't really affect its fermentability in extract. Theoretically you could mash it in some 6-row but that kinda defeats the purpose. I do believe the carmelization of extract through early addition decreases fermentability by forming complex sugars in carmelization. But I don't think it's sognificant
Jay, here some examples, all of these were full boils and were in primary for four weeks, (1) OG .056 FG .020 (2) OG .058 FG .028 (3) OG .062 FG .018 . I am not adding any lactose or any other ingredient other than LME, DME, hops, yeast nutrient, irish moss.
Have you tried different extracts?
1 lb of speciality grain is quite a lot, and the sugars are mostly unfermentable. Assuming you get about 20 points from the grain (I'm assuming it is Crystal), in 3 gallons, that's 7 points a gallon.
Try replacing half a pound of DME with half a pound of table sugar for one batch and see how it turns out. The sugar is completely fermentable, and should make a significant impact on the FG.
1 lb of speciality grain is quite a lot, and the sugars are mostly unfermentable. Assuming you get about 20 points from the grain (I'm assuming it is Crystal), in 3 gallons, that's 7 points a gallon.
Try replacing half a pound of DME with half a pound of table sugar for one batch and see how it turns out. The sugar is completely fermentable, and should make a significant impact on the FG.
mobilecabinworks
Well-Known Member
Can you post your recipes you have experienced this with?
-Perhaps try a liquid yeast like a White Labs or Wyeast.
What you experience with extract in your boil is not actually carmalization, but thats what everyone (myself included) call it, but it is actually melonoidin production from Maillard reaction. Caramelization doesn't really start occuring until about 230F and up. Maltose actually won't caramelize until 356F. It varies for different sugars. But I digress.
-I would try leaving the irish moss out. It's not necessary for extract brewing and may be dropping useful nutrient out of the wort.
-Try some late extract additions about 15 until KO (add with the flame off). At the beginning of the boil add about 1lb of extract per gallon. That will gain you a little more hop utilization as well.
-Make sure you are not boiling the hell out of the wort too. It's really more of a smooth, strong simmer. Doesn't need to be leaping out to the pot (not saying it was).
-Perhaps try a liquid yeast like a White Labs or Wyeast.
What you experience with extract in your boil is not actually carmalization, but thats what everyone (myself included) call it, but it is actually melonoidin production from Maillard reaction. Caramelization doesn't really start occuring until about 230F and up. Maltose actually won't caramelize until 356F. It varies for different sugars. But I digress.
-I would try leaving the irish moss out. It's not necessary for extract brewing and may be dropping useful nutrient out of the wort.
-Try some late extract additions about 15 until KO (add with the flame off). At the beginning of the boil add about 1lb of extract per gallon. That will gain you a little more hop utilization as well.
-Make sure you are not boiling the hell out of the wort too. It's really more of a smooth, strong simmer. Doesn't need to be leaping out to the pot (not saying it was).
Dr Malt
Well-Known Member
With extract brewing, your fermentable sugars are mainly set by the lme and dme you are using. Based on the range you mentioned (70 -50% attenuation), depending on the recipe and beer style, the 70% maybe fine but the 50% is not. I would suggest perhaps your 50% brew was a stuck fermentation. This happens sometimes. A few things to try when this happens is stir or shake the fermentation to resuspend the yeast. Another is to add more yeast.
Dr Malt
Dr Malt
With extract brewing, your fermentable sugars are mainly set by the lme and dme you are using. Based on the range you mentioned (70 -50% attenuation), depending on the recipe and beer style, the 70% maybe fine but the 50% is not. I would suggest perhaps your 50% brew was a stuck fermentation. This happens sometimes. A few things to try when this happens is stir or shake the fermentation to resuspend the yeast. Another is to add more yeast.
Dr Malt
Doc, thank's for the reply, I know you think the 70% may be fine but I would like to get it over that mark. I have been using two packets of 05/04 so I don't think more yeast will do anything. My next attempt will be to use a more attenuating yeast, I did a little research and thinking about trying wyeast 3771 saison with a starter, I rather use dry yeast but can't seem to find any that has higher attenuation than 05/04, any suggestions?
junior said:
you're aware that saison yeast will produce a very distinct flavor? Do not choose this yeast based on attenuation alone. An option i thought of is using honey or corn sugar as a percentage of the grain bill. this will cause you to use less extract and therefore residual sugars
Dr Malt
Well-Known Member
The 05/04 yeast information says attnetuation "medium". I am not sure what that means for that yeast. As you have discovered, Wyeast give a percentage range on yeast attenuation. As gstrawn points out, do not select your yeast on attnetuation alone. What style of beer are you making? Wyeast provides a selection chart for various yeast strains based on the beer style. A good overall strain is Wyeast 1056. It has an attenuation of 73 - 77%.
Dr Malt
Dr Malt
Moonlighter
Well-Known Member
Edit: Sorry, my question was addressed in the original post.
periwinkle1239
Well-Known Member
That's an interesting comment. Will a boil that is too rigorous affect the fermentables?
The 05/04 yeast information says attnetuation "medium". I am not sure what that means for that yeast. As you have discovered, Wyeast give a percentage range on yeast attenuation. As gstrawn points out, do not select your yeast on attnetuation alone. What style of beer are you making? Wyeast provides a selection chart for various yeast strains based on the beer style. A good overall strain is Wyeast 1056. It has an attenuation of 73 - 77%.
Dr Malt
Doc, the style of beer I brew is either dark ales/stouts or amber ales, as you and gstrawn mentioned the flavors from using a saison yeast would produce distinct flavors, what type of flavors would that be? The other thing I was thinking of trying was to do a mini mash of two row because I read somewhere on the web that the sugars from them are more fermentable compared to dme or lme, also that the enzymes from the two row will break down some of the unfermemtable sugars from the extract and special grains.
howabouttheiris
Well-Known Member
How are you making your measurements?
Dr Malt
Well-Known Member
Junior
Saison yeast tend to generate a clovey (phenolic, spicy) flavor. As far as lme and dme, they are made from concnetrated and dried wort. The manufacturer makes an all grain brew, boils the wort for a short time, like about 15 minutes, and then concentrates it to a syrup for lme. For dme, it is spray dried.
Dr Malt
Saison yeast tend to generate a clovey (phenolic, spicy) flavor. As far as lme and dme, they are made from concnetrated and dried wort. The manufacturer makes an all grain brew, boils the wort for a short time, like about 15 minutes, and then concentrates it to a syrup for lme. For dme, it is spray dried.
Dr Malt
What measurements are you talking about? For the attenuation numbers I use a hydrometer ie OG,FG.
I'm going to repeat myself on a few points, and add some more:
1 lb of steeping grain is generally too much for a 3 gallon batch, and will leave a lot of residual/unfermentable sugars. Try halving the amount of specialty grain. It will reduce your FG by a few points.
Have you tried different extracts? Some ferment differently than others.
Try replacing half a pound of DME with half a pound of table sugar, it should take a few points off your FG. Simple sugars are used a lot in British and Belgian beers.
Use yeast nutrient. Extracts tend to be deficient in a lot of nutrients required by yeast.
3711 is truly a beast, but is not suitable for American/English style beers. The yeast is very phenolic, and the yeast flavors will dominate the flavor of the beer.
PacMan is probably the most attenuative American (clean) style yeast.
If you can do a partial mash, it would help in 2 ways; 1) mashing at a low temperature will add a lot of fermentable sugars, and 2) will add FAN (Free Amino Nitrogen - yeast nutrients) to the wort.
1 lb of steeping grain is generally too much for a 3 gallon batch, and will leave a lot of residual/unfermentable sugars. Try halving the amount of specialty grain. It will reduce your FG by a few points.
Have you tried different extracts? Some ferment differently than others.
Try replacing half a pound of DME with half a pound of table sugar, it should take a few points off your FG. Simple sugars are used a lot in British and Belgian beers.
Use yeast nutrient. Extracts tend to be deficient in a lot of nutrients required by yeast.
3711 is truly a beast, but is not suitable for American/English style beers. The yeast is very phenolic, and the yeast flavors will dominate the flavor of the beer.
PacMan is probably the most attenuative American (clean) style yeast.
If you can do a partial mash, it would help in 2 ways; 1) mashing at a low temperature will add a lot of fermentable sugars, and 2) will add FAN (Free Amino Nitrogen - yeast nutrients) to the wort.
Calder, thank's for the reply, I just finished another batch while trying some of your suggestions, I cut back the specialty grains to 1/2, I always add nutrients, I still ended up with only 70% attenuation. Next time I will try corn sugar as a replacement to dme. You mentioned some extracts ferment differently then others, I am using Briess Dried Malt Extract- Golden Light lately. I am going to do a partial mash in the future, once again thank's for the info.
