sugars, fermentables etc

[bannerj]

I'm looking at the Founder's breakfast stout clone recipes that has a bajillion posts. I want to do a good stout but I'm a little shy about doing anything over 8% since I ruined some beers last winter due to stuck fermentation. I think it's because I haven't gotten into yeast starters (no fridge space) and because of inadequate aeration.

I'm thinking I'd lower the 2 Row from 16lbs to 12 or 13 to get 1.079 OG at around 8.2%.

That got me to wondering about adding some cane sugar. It is much more fermentable than wort yes? Talk to me about what will happen if I add a half pound to get back some alcohol?

thx

 

[kh54s10]

Why not keep the base grain then. If you are worried about a stuck sparge because of high alcohol % the sugar will add that back into the equation. Cane sugar is more fermentable meaning it will ferment more fully and leave less sweet taste. It will also dry and thin the beer. This is not really what you want with a stout. Though half a pound is not much. You would have to run it through a recipe calculator to see the results on the alcohol level.

Make a starter. It is not really difficult. Check out mrmalty.com and yeastcalc.com for information on starters.

 

[WoodlandBrew]

Yes, you can add simple sugar to replace part of the fermentables. I've got some solid information on my blog about how different sugars ferment. Search for "Mash Temperature Theory" and "Recipe Formulation"

My book has more experiments and better tables and equations.

 

[austinb]

I do not think cane sugar is the best solution to your problem. It will dry out the beer and possibly create cider like off flavors which is probably not what you are looking for and will not create a very good clone of the beer you are trying to brew. Instead I would try to address the aeration and under pitching issues you mentioned. While starters and wort aeration systems are great, if you aren't ready to take those steps yet there are still ways to address those issues in other ways.

First you can try and aerate by letting the beer splash in the bottom of your fermenter when transfer it from the kettle. Then if you are using a carboy put a sanitized piece of foil loosely around the top or if you are using a bucket put it over the airlock hole or just put the lid on loosely and swirl the fermenter as vigorously as possible without beer splashing out the top for about a minute and your beer should have sufficient aeration.

To make sure you get enough yeast without a starter use dry yeast which contains about twice as much yeast as liquid yeast when properly rehydrated. BYO's founders clone recommends wyeast 1056 but safale us-05 dry yeast is the same strain so you can use that instead. I've heard of people making beers up to 11-12% with that strain so with a good pitch it should be fine. Because of the higher gravity I would pitch 2 packs of us-05 just to play it safe (1 pack is enough for beers under 1.060 og). Also make sure you properly rehydrate it according to the manufacturers directions because pitching directly into the wort can significantly lower the number of viable yeast cells.

I you are not making starters then I would recommend using dry yeast in all your beers except in styles where the yeast used is a major component in the flavor profile of the beer. There are some experienced brewers who rarely make starters because dry yeast is much easier. You can usually substitute a dry yeast in most recipes because they have strains for American and British ales, Belgian beers, hefeweizens and even a saison strain now. If you have the time though starters are great because you have more yeast options and fermentation can start much quicker when a starter is pitched at high krausen. Equipment should not be an issue with starters because all you need is a growler, some foil and a pot with a lid for boiling your starter wort (I do love my computer fan DIY stir plate though). You also mentioned something about a lack of fridge space for starters but that should not be an issue if you just pitch the whole starter at high krausen it will never need refrigeration, pitching 1 liter of starter wort in 5 gallons should not alter the beer significantly.

 

[khreed]

For my part, using Cane suger is something I will never do again. Of course, it eaier to obtain your OG but the taste is just awfull. PArt of the suger come into to cider flavor and some of it is not fermented keeping the beer very sweet. Finally, it's not good at all !!!!

 

[Beezer94]

Dry yeast is definitely the way to go. I love some liquid yeast varities, but I just threw away $100+ worth of liquid yeast last week doing some clean-up. Dry yeast lasts a long, long time, and you don't need to do much of anything ahead of time. It takes only a few minutes to rehydrate and aeration is not as important.

Mashing 148-150F for 75 minutes will help let things dry out more.

If you use sugar use corn sugar (dextrose) not cane sugar and keep it less than 10% of total bill. This sugar is 100% fermentable so unless you do something wrong it will provide 0% sweetness.

 

[bannerj]

great great great. thanks for the help here.

I guess I was thinking about the fridge for starters if I'm going to cold crash it before pitching. I know you can use the whole slurry though. My further resistance to getting into starters is just simplicity. I have two little kids and a busy job. Brewing already has several stages. I'm growing my own hops and that is enough extra work/learning for now. I like the simplicity of dry yeast at this stage, but I know I'll get into it later.

And that is also why I haven't gotten into an aeration system. I BIAB and am trying to not amass a bunch of gear. The beers that had stuck fermentation had been rocked in the glass pretty vigorously. Both were belgian dry yeasts though, two packs for each brew. Am I right that they will be more fickle than US 05?

I was thinking maybe a bit of cane sugar be much more easily fermentable and might get me a bit of alcohol back. But yeah...duh...it'll mess with the body and thin out the stout. Not good.

Lately for aeration, I snipped off the very end of an old bottle brush so that it can fit in my drill. I soak it in starsan and then whip the chilling wort for five minutes...this is while I'm using the immersion wort chiller. The movement keeps the wort cycling around the copper tubing. Seems to work well. I haven't had a stuck ferm all summer but I've been using US 05 and haven't brewed anything over 6.5%.

 

[daksin]

If you can't pitch enough yeast (starters) then you really don't have much business making big beers. Not pitching enough yeast into a beer made with simple sugar isn't going to be any better than one made with enough malt to begin with.

 

[bannerj]

well, I'm certainly glad to know what I have no business making.......

 

[WoodlandBrew]

There are a few sections of my book that I think you would really find useful. I've had to change the way I brew because of life changes as well and have adapted to make great beer with little time.

Dry yeast can be finicky. How are you hydrating it?

Also, don't give up on big beers. There are plenty of ways to do it well without a starter.
1) make a smaller batch
2) pitch more yeast
3) pitch the yeast into only part of the wort and then add the rest later
4) pitch the yeast into a lower gravity wort and add DME on day two to get the gravity you want.

My book goes into much more detail and explains the science behind all of these procedures. Not only maintaining cell count, but sanitation concerns as well.

The book will be published this month.

 

[austinb]

great great great. thanks for the help here.

I guess I was thinking about the fridge for starters if I'm going to cold crash it before pitching. I know you can use the whole slurry though. My further resistance to getting into starters is just simplicity. I have two little kids and a busy job. Brewing already has several stages. I'm growing my own hops and that is enough extra work/learning for now. I like the simplicity of dry yeast at this stage, but I know I'll get into it later.

And that is also why I haven't gotten into an aeration system. I BIAB and am trying to not amass a bunch of gear. The beers that had stuck fermentation had been rocked in the glass pretty vigorously. Both were belgian dry yeasts though, two packs for each brew. Am I right that they will be more fickle than US 05?

I was thinking maybe a bit of cane sugar be much more easily fermentable and might get me a bit of alcohol back. But yeah...duh...it'll mess with the body and thin out the stout. Not good.

Lately for aeration, I snipped off the very end of an old bottle brush so that it can fit in my drill. I soak it in starsan and then whip the chilling wort for five minutes...this is while I'm using the immersion wort chiller. The movement keeps the wort cycling around the copper tubing. Seems to work well. I haven't had a stuck ferm all summer but I've been using US 05 and haven't brewed anything over 6.5%.

Not sure why your beers got stuck if you pitched 2 packs...I'm assuming that is 2 packs in 5 gallons? Did you properly rehydrate the dry yeast in water first? If not I've heard that the yeast viability can drop to 50% if you pitch directly into the wort. It could just be that the strain you used is not very alcohol tolerant. Did you try pitching a more alcohol tolerant yeast to finish it off? I made a barley wine that got stuck once and I pitched some champagne yeast which then finished the job. If your Belgian yeast had already created the flavor profile you wanted it wouldn't hurt to pitch a clean alcohol tolerant yeast to eat the rest of the sugars.

Do you have any local craft breweries in your town? Another thing you could look into is calling a brewery and ask I you could get some yeast for a high gravity beer. Breweries always have an excess of yeast and many small breweries are very home brewer friendly and will provide some yeast from the bottom of one of their tanks if you ask them. You will likely get a higher cell count doing this than if you made a starter. I used to work at a brewery and I would sanitize and fill a 12oz bottle halfway with the thick yeast from the bottom of their conicals the day before I brewed and it worked great.

 

[bannerj]

There are a few sections of my book that I think you would really find useful. I've had to change the way I brew because of life changes as well and have adapted to make great beer with little time.

Dry yeast can be finicky. How are you hydrating it?

Also, don't give up on big beers. There are plenty of ways to do it well without a starter.
1) make a smaller batch
2) pitch more yeast
3) pitch the yeast into only part of the wort and then add the rest later
4) pitch the yeast into a lower gravity wort and add DME on day two to get the gravity you want.

My book goes into much more detail and explains the science behind all of these procedures. Not only maintaining cell count, but sanitation concerns as well.

The book will be published this month.

Congrats on the book. I'll look into it. And thanks for the tips here.