Struggling to know if my water is ruining my beer!!!

[Finlandbrews]

I need some help because I have some issues with my beer which always result in a phenolic/Belgian profile (sometimes totally undrinkable) and the attenuation is rather/very low, achieving 75% of the attenuation it should do, meaning 1.050 to 1.020. I use one packet of California ale safale 05 dry yeast hydrated for 4.75 gallons and my temps are controlled and I have done batch fermenting at 16 celsius, 18 and 20 celsius and I get always too much phenols, fuels alcohols and esters (mostly dusty, vomit, bubblegum, unripe apple, paint, nail polish and plastic) .

I ve been considering doing a water analysis but I haven't found any service yet on the European market which is affordable like ward lab.

I am brewing beer on an island in the Baltic sea where the water comes from the sea and is filtered by a reverse osmosis system which is 150 meters from my house. I suspect my issue to be related to the water profile because my water has a very strange taste and odor. I can't really describe it (a bit like plastic I would say and I can't drink the water anymore because I can't take the taste something I have never had with any water I ve had in Europe, at least not that taste). The annual filtered volume is 4000 cubic meters of water which is about 1 million gallons.

What I m concern is that the house where I brew is new and the tubing where water flows after being filtered are made of chrome. In my toilet where the water boiler is located I can see the chrome tubing and in the locations where the tubing makes an angle it is covered with a green color thing which has even made some coloring of the joints between the tiles. Can the taste of my water come from the chrome tubing? As well when the house was brand new there was a white foam coming out from the tap which has now disappeared.

In 2014 and 2015 there were some water testing made to the hotel and the pilot house in the island which are both 200 meters from my house and what I have noticed as compared to the water I get on the mainland is: chloride levels on the island can be very high in comparison to what we get here in mainland 190 ppm vs 5ppm, as well the Sodium levels 110 ppm vs 6ppm, and turbidity is between 0,5 to 0,1 compare to 0,09. I do not know if these can be the reason of the strange odor and taste... PH of the water is 8.9 but usually in Finland it is between 8.3 and 8.9.

If anybody can give me tip what to do I would really appreciate!

I will make a batch I with bottled water this weekend. That can help me finding out.

 

[BargainFittings]

All the facts point to the water being bad for brewing. If you have so many taste issues from the tap that is the culprit.

 

[Ryfi]

I've had problems where I created phenolics from sparging with water that was too hot, not adjusted below 6.0 pH or a combination of the two. Do you acidify your sparge water? If you are using it untreated and sparging with 8.9 pH water that could be the problem. When the pH goes above 6.0 it allows for extractions of tannins from the grain husk which turn into a phenolic flavor.

 

[ajdelange]

You have a multiplicity of problems to deal with. RO will only remove a certain percentage of the minerals in the feed and sea water contains lots and lots of minerals so the permeate may well contain ions at the 100 mg/L level unless multiple stages of RO are used. Herein lies a possible solution for you. Add an RO filter of your own. If the water entering your house has 100 mg/L sodium that water processed through an RO system should be at less than 10.

Minerals aside there may be organics in sea water (guessing about this). Most RO systems have a GAC filter which should aid in removing them. You might even try a separate GAC filter on your home water to see if that improves the flavor.

Your list of off flavors have causes classically associated with them:

dusty: Geosmine from streptomyces baceteria. Usually associated with surface water. With sea water?

vomit: Infection with enteric bacteria

bubblegum: 4-vinyl guaiaco. Infection with a wild yeast strain carrying the POF gene.

unripe apple; Acetaldehyde. Incomplete fermentation or, more likely, zymomonas infection

paint: I don't have anything for that one!

nail polish: ethyl acetate. A result of high temperature fermentations. Normal in some beers but not at the level that one is reminded of nail polish

plastic: chlorphenolics. Caused by reaction of chlorine or chlorine compounds introduced for disinfection with organic matter in the water.

These are the usual explanations for those flavors. I don't know how many, if any are pertinent to your situation.

It is very important that you know what is in the water you brew with. You can do this either by analysis of the water or by removing everything from it. As the former is difficult for you it seems the latter (RO) is the only approach. With respect to the former there are kits made by a German company for the aquarium trade which will let you measure, fairly accurately and inexpensively, the hardness and alkalinity of a water sample. Perhaps you can obtain those.


It also appears that you may be having problems with sanitation.

 

[Finlandbrews]

You have a multiplicity of problems to deal with. RO will only remove a certain percentage of the minerals in the feed and sea water contains lots and lots of minerals so the permeate may well contain ions at the 100 mg/L level unless multiple stages of RO are used. Herein lies a possible solution for you. Add an RO filter of your own. If the water entering your house has 100 mg/L sodium that water processed through an RO system should be at less than 10.

Minerals aside there may be organics in sea water (guessing about this). Most RO systems have a GAC filter which should aid in removing them. You might even try a separate GAC filter on your home water to see if that improves the flavor.

Your list of off flavors have causes classically associated with them:

dusty: Geosmine from streptomyces baceteria. Usually associated with surface water. With sea water?

vomit: Infection with enteric bacteria

bubblegum: 4-vinyl guaiaco. Infection with a wild yeast strain carrying the POF gene.

unripe apple; Acetaldehyde. Incomplete fermentation or, more likely, zymomonas infection

paint: I don't have anything for that one!

nail polish: ethyl acetate. A result of high temperature fermentations. Normal in some beers but not at the level that one is reminded on nail polish

plastic: chlorphenolics. Caused by reaction of chlorine or chlorine compounds introduced for disinfection with organic matter in the water.

These are the usual explanations for those flavors. I don't know how many, if any are pertinent to your situation.

It is very important that you know what is in the water you brew with. You can do this either by analysis of the water or by removing everything from it. As the former is difficult for you it seems the latter (RO) is the only approach. With respect to the former there are kits made by a German company for the aquarium trade which will let you measure, fairly accurately and inexpensively, the hardness and alkalinity of a water sample. Perhaps you can obtain those.


It also appears that you may be having problems with sanitation.

Thanks a lot for the feedback ajdelange! May I ask what German company you refer too? Also what can the alkalinity and hardness tell me about my brewing water as being suitable for making quality beer?

I have requested the person who treats the water as to what RO machine/system is used and what treatment is being done after filtration?

Also, to what extent can the chrome tubing affect my water in content and odor and smell? For some reasons stainless steel tubing was not chosen in the installation of the water pipelines for my house. Is it so that all breweries avoid chrome tubing because it contaminates the water?

 

[Hanglow]

If you sign up to the jims beer kit forum, there is a forummer there called WallyBrew who does tests for £25. I don't know if it is feasible to send your water to him though from Finland or how busy he is at the moment

For the alkalnity, google Salifert they do the aquarium testing kits and also do one for calcium which can be handy too .
Salifert Kh/Alk is the one you need for alkalinity. There are guides on how to use it properly, although its pretty easy.

Although it sounds like you may need to go with just bottled/ro water

 

[ajdelange]

Thanks a lot for the feedback ajdelange! May I ask what German company you refer too?

I think it is the Salifert mentioned in No. 3.

Also what can the alkalinity and hardness tell me about my brewing water as being suitable for making quality beer?

To make the best beer you must have control over the water's mineral content and there are two ways to get that:
1)Find out what is in the water so you know how much of a particular ion must be added or subtracted in order to get the correct amount
2)Remove all the ions and then put back the correct amounts of the ones needed.

As 1) is apparently difficult for you 2) (RO) seems to be the way to go. The most (arguably) important brewing water parameter is alkalinity as it tells you how much acid you will have to add to the water in order to reach proper mash pH. But that is not why I suggested to obtain an alkalinity kit now. The reason for doing it now is to get an idea of the overall quality of your water. If the alkalinity 1 dH and the total hardness 0.9 dH then then the water plant has done a pretty good job of removing minerals from the sea water and you might not need an RO unit. If the alkalinity and hardness are at the 10 or greater level then that tells you that additional stages of RO will be needed. At some point you will need a complete analysis.

I have requested the person who treats the water as to what RO machine/system is used and what treatment is being done after filtration?

He should have some analysis data.

Also, to what extent can the chrome tubing affect my water in content and odor and smell?

It shouldn't effect it at all. Most potable water is piped in either copper or plastic (PEX) tubing. Sometimes the copper is chrome plated for appearance in which case it would be on the outside only. If beer or something acidic is being conveyed then the interior will be chrome plated as well because chromium is resistant to chemical attack.

ove all the ions and then put back the correct amounts of the ones needed.

As 1) is apparently difficult for you 2) (RO) seems to be the way to go. The most (arguably) important brewing water parameter is alkalinity as it tells you how much acid you will have to add to the water in order to reach proper mash pH. But that is not why I suggested to obtain an alkalinity kit now. The reason for doing it now is to get an idea of the overall quality of your water. If the alkalinity 1 dH and the total hardness 0.9 dH then then the water plant has done a pretty good job of removing minerals from the sea water and you might not need an RO unit. If the alkalinity and hardness are at the 10 or greater level then that tells you that additional stages of RO will be needed. At some point you will need a complete analysis.

I have requested the person who treats the water as to what RO machine/system is used and what treatment is being done after filtration?

He should have some analysis data.

For some reasons stainless steel tubing was not chosen in the installation of the water pipelines for my house.

The cost of the material relative to copper or PEX would make it very unlikely that a house would be plumber with stainless steel.

Is it so that all breweries avoid chrome tubing because it contaminates the water?

Breweries tend to use stainless steel because it is resistant to acid corrosion. Beer and wort are mildly acidic but enough to attack copper pipe if slowly. The concern is leaching of copper ions into the beer or wort. It may be practical to chrome plate the interior of a small item such as a beer faucet but I have never heard of copper pipe with the interior chrome plated.

 

[Finlandbrews]

Thank you again for all these feedback! Should I buy salifert or this lamotte test kit which would give me further indication on other parameters https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005KJI79C/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

We have the Salifert Kits in stock if you decide to try them.

Russ

 

[ajdelange]

Thank you again for all these feedback! Should I buy salifert or this lamotte test kit which would give me further indication on other parameters https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005KJI79C/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

The Lamotte as it will also give you chloride and rough sulfate from which you can get rough sodium. The accuracy isn't that great but at this point a rough idea of what you are dealing with is better than not knowing anything.

Let me ask again: don't the people that run the RO plant have to do some tests?

 

[Finlandbrews]

The Lamotte as it will also give you chloride and rough sulfate from which you can get rough sodium. The accuracy isn't that great but at this point a rough idea of what you are dealing with is better than not knowing anything.

Let me ask again: don't the people that run the RO plant have to do some tests?

Indeed some tests are to be done and I have two reports from samples taken at hotel and pilot house, in 2014 and 2015. In those tests the important ions that are missing are calcium and magnesium, therefore hardness and also alkalinity. Chlorine/chloramine (if any?) are not known either because they are not tested. Sulfate levels seem to be low as indicated from those reports with 4 ppm concentration while sodium seem relatively high with 110 ppm. Chloride was tested one of the 2 times in 2015 with 190 ppm.

I have also noticed that the TOC levels are indicated to be below 0.5 ppm. Is that somehow a valuable information? Can those TOCs react with chlorine to produce chloramine and give the taste to my water.

As well is it so that chloride and sodium are so high compare to the water on the mainland because my water comes from the sea and the RO system can't filter these ions?

I will be visiting the RO facility on 1st week end in November. The guy who is treating the water didn't want to answer my questions such as what concentration of chlorine is added and if any calcium and magnesium are added and to what levels, and who takes care of the maintenance? Apparently the guy running it is not a professional and he is treating the water on a voluntary base (as in the times when the army was on the island they would take care of the treatment system) because otherwise we wouldnt have running water on the island. Most of the water is actually needed by the hotel because there are only 35 people living all year round while the hotel has 120 people accommodation.

 

[ajdelange]

Indeed some tests are to be done and I have two reports from samples taken at hotel and pilot house, in 2014 and 2015. In those tests the important ions that are missing are calcium and magnesium, therefore hardness and also alkalinity. Chlorine/chloramine (if any?) are not known either because they are not tested. Sulfate levels seem to be low as indicated from those reports with 4 ppm concentration while sodium seem relatively high with 110 ppm. Chloride was tested one of the 2 times in 2015 with 190 ppm.

We can get a rough idea as to what is going on from these. In typical seas water the sodium content is (according to Wikipedia) about 10800 ppm. If your water is at 110 ppm we can estimate the plant's rejection at 1 - 110/10800 = 1 - 0.0102 or about 99%. Chloride is typically 19800 ppm and 1% of that is 198 ppm which is not inconsistent with your reported 190. Magnesium in sea water is around 1292 ppm of which 1% would be 13 ppm and calcium which is at 400 ppm would be expected to be at 4 ppm (as would potassium). Sulfate is at 910 in nominal sea water and would thus be expected to be at about 9 ppm in this system. A recipe for artificial sea water contains 2.33 mmol/l bicarbonate which, after 99% rejection would leave 0.023 mEq/L alkalinity (1 ppm as CaCO3). Now these numbers assume that the system rejects all ions to the same extent which RO systems do not do so these numbers are rough numbers but at least we have an idea as to what the water's ion content may be.

I have also noticed that the TOC levels are indicated to be below 0.5 ppm. Is that somehow a valuable information? Can those TOCs react with chlorine to produce chloramine and give the taste to my water.

That is possible and could be responsible for the phenolic taste and strange smell you mentioned in No. 1. A larger water treatment plant would be careful not to let this happen (by oxidizing away the organics before chlorination or the use of chloramination rather than straight chlorination). You might want to try a simple carbon filter to see if that removes the flavor and smell from the water. If it does then that may very well solve the overall problem though the chloride and sodium levels are always going to be high. How is the water at the hotel? You might want to drop by there and ask them if they carbon filter the water they serve there guests and, if so, whether that makes the water taste better.

As well is it so that chloride and sodium are so high compare to the water on the mainland because my water comes from the sea and the RO system can't filter these ions?

Yes. Sea water contains respectively 20 and 11 grams of those ions in each liter. Even when 99% of them are removed that still leaves quite a bit. If you want to lower their concentrations further then a small RO system is, as we have mentioned in earlier posts, is really the only really practical way to do so. From the 200 mg/L (ppm) level it should take you down to around 2 - 4 mg/L.

I will be visiting the RO facility on 1st week end in November. The guy who is treating the water didn't want to answer my questions such as what concentration of chlorine is added and if any calcium and magnesium are added and to what levels, and who takes care of the maintenance?

That's interesting as the phenolic taste is somewhat suggestive that this part of the process (chlorination) is not being handled properly.

They are not (most probably) adding calcium or magnesium salts as the obvious candidates are as the chloride and sulfate and sulfate is low while chloride is about where it should be given that it is RO treated sea water. The only reason to do so would be to protect the distribution system from corrosion in which case they would want to add calcium bicarbonate. The only way I can think of to do that without increasing sulfate or chloride would be to add lime stone (calcium carbonate) and dissolve it with carbonic acid. This seems rather an elaborate thing to do as liquid carbonic would have to be shipped to what is apparently a small facility and I'd think monitoring the process would be rather involved. Remember, please, when interpreting my remarks that I am not a water treatment engineer. If they were doing something like this you would have appreciable alkalinity which you would be able to detect with any of the alkalinity test kits. Without added bicarbonate the water would have very low alkalinity.

 

[Finlandbrews]

We can get a rough idea as to what is going on from these. In typical seas water the sodium content is (according to Wikipedia) about 10800 ppm. If your water is at 110 ppm we can estimate the plant's rejection at 1 - 110/10800 = 1 - 0.0102 or about 99%. Chloride is typically 19800 ppm and 1% of that is 198 ppm which is not inconsistent with your reported 190. Magnesium in sea water is around 1292 ppm of which 1% would be 13 ppm and calcium which is at 400 ppm would be expected to be at 4 ppm (as would potassium). Sulfate is at 910 in nominal sea water and would thus be expected to be at about 9 ppm in this system. A recipe for artificial sea water contains 2.33 mmol/l bicarbonate which, after 99% rejection would leave 0.023 mEq/L alkalinity (1 ppm as CaCO3). Now these numbers assume that the system rejects all ions to the same extent which RO systems do not do so these numbers are rough numbers but at least we have an idea as to what the water's ion content may be.

That is possible and could be responsible for the phenolic taste and strange smell you mentioned in No. 1. A larger water treatment plant would be careful not to let this happen (by oxidizing away the organics before chlorination or the use of chloramination rather than straight chlorination). You might want to try a simple carbon filter to see if that removes the flavor and smell from the water. If it does then that may very well solve the overall problem though the chloride and sodium levels are always going to be high. How is the water at the hotel? You might want to drop by there and ask them if they carbon filter the water they serve there guests and, if so, whether that makes the water taste better.

Yes. Sea water contains respectively 20 and 11 grams of those ions in each liter. Even when 99% of them are removed that still leaves quite a bit. If you want to lower their concentrations further then a small RO system is, as we have mentioned in earlier posts, is really the only really practical way to do so. From the 200 mg/L (ppm) level it should take you down to around 2 - 4 mg/L.




That's interesting as the phenolic taste is somewhat suggestive that this part of the process (chlorination) is not being handled properly.

They are not (most probably) adding calcium or magnesium salts as the obvious candidates are as the chloride and sulfate and sulfate is low while chloride is about where it should be given that it is RO treated sea water. The only reason to do so would be to protect the distribution system from corrosion in which case they would want to add calcium bicarbonate. The only way I can think of to do that without increasing sulfate or chloride would be to add lime and dissolve it with carbonic acid. This seems rather an elaborate thing to do as liquid carbonic would have to be shipped to what is apparently a small facility and I'd think monitoring the process would be rather involved. Remember, please, when interpreting my remarks that I am not a water treatment engineer. If they were doing something like this you would have appreciable alkalinity which you would be able to detect with any of the alkalinity test kits. Without added bicarbonate the water would have very low alkalinity.

Again, I'm very thankful for your comments! Very valuable!

One thing I didn't mention is that pH was measured at 8.9 from the same laboratory and turbidity at 0.5. Can turbidity indicate something? How can pH be so high with such low levels of calcium and magnesium? (I have put one of the two reports below: chloride was not tested in this report though)

I have found a company in UK as recommend by one HBT fellow where I will send my sample to and I will hear more about it by mid October. Hopefully the water profile will not change too much during the shipping.

 

[Finlandbrews]

Here is attached all elements that were tested in the report.

View attachment 1474295102200.jpg

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

pH should be measure Onsite - not at the lab.

 

[ajdelange]

With respect to pH: it can be high if any metal is present in your particular case, sodium or magnesium. Even the 4 mg/L calcium we hypothesized could do it as that is 4/20 = 0.2 mEq/L. If we put enough Ca(OH)2 into pure water to give us 0.2 mEq/L calcium we would also have 0.2 mEq/L OH- and that's enough for a pH of 14 + log(0.2/1000) = 10.4.

The fact that the pH was measured in the lab does not mean it is not valid. It is always best, of course, to do the analysis at the place and time where the sample is taken but this clearly isn't always possible. In samples that are supersaturated with carbonic acid this is especially important as CO2 can escape changing the pH reading and the alkalinity but proper sample collection and transport (in a sealed container) largely remove these problems. In a sample which is probably more or less in equilbrium with the air this is not a problem and even if it were it wouldn't matter as brewers don't really care much (if at all) about sample pH. It is the alkalinity which is important and we think you do not have any.

As for turbidity: this is mostly an aesthetics consideration but one that is taken very seriously in the US. 0.5 FNU is crystal clear to my eye but in the US they often want it lower than that.

Everything else in the report looks OK to me but as my Finnish is a little rusty I wasn't sure what Klooriphenolit means. If it means 'chlorphenoics' then this may be very important to you in terms of the plastic like taste you mentioned. I also have no idea what 'ei tod.' might mean. If it means 'none detected' then that is good news. If it means 'not tested' then there is still the possibility that it might be the explanation for this taste.

 

[Finlandbrews]

Kloorifenolit means chlorophenols and testing says "ei tod." which means "not detected". Does that mean there is no possibility that what I taste and smell is related to chlorine and chloramine? I actually asked a young boy to taste the water, he said as well that he never tasted such a water in Finland. Also I tasted water from another tap on the island and it was even worse. It felt to me like chlorine but I can't be so sure...

 

[ajdelange]

I zoomed in on that because you mentioned 'plastic' and that is often how chlorphenolics are described. The fact that the report say none were detected is clearly, then, good news but chlorphenolics have tasteable thresholds measured in ppb. Chlorine and chloramine could still be involved if chlorinated water comes in contact with organic material. Chloramine is less likely to have this effect (which is why it is used so much). Of course chlorine and chloramine taste pretty bad on their own. Sodium metabisulfite (Campden tablets sold by vintners' and brewers' supply houses) remove chlorine and chloramine instantly. See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=361073 for more details on this. An activated carbon filter should be able to remove chlorphenolics so I'd experiment with those.

 

[Finlandbrews]

I will do the testing with campden tablets first and also carbon filter. I will know more about my water composition by middle of October. By the way can the process of filtration as described in the below email give more indication on the water composition?

View attachment 1474450606017.jpg

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, that gives us a pretty clear picture of what the treatment process is. The sand filtration will remove particulate matter but not dissolved organics. The RO filter should get most of those. We wonder why the elaborate filter follows the RO unit rather than preceding it and wonder if it doesn't, perhaps, contain GAC though your correspondent seems knowledgeable enough about what is going on to have mentioned it if it were. Despite my earlier surmise that they would not adjust pH and hardness to protect the distribution apparently they are doing so by dissolving chalk (note that in an earlier post I said lime leaving out the word 'stone' when I really meant 'lime stone' which is calcium carbonate not that plain lime wouldn't work as well) with sulfuric acid. As no quantitative data was given I can't estimate what the hardness and sulfate contents should be but it seems that 4 ppm is pretty low for a system adding sulfuric acid unless they are dosing at a very low level which may be the case.

 

[Aristotelian]

Stupid question...have you tried simply brewing with good tasting water from the grocery store?

 

[Finlandbrews]

Stupid question...have you tried simply brewing with good tasting water from the grocery store?

I have not but I will definitely do that next weekend!

 

[Finlandbrews]

Yes, that gives us a pretty clear picture of what the treatment process is. The sand filtration will remove particulate matter but not dissolved organics. The RO filter should get most of those. We wonder why the elaborate filter follows the RO unit rather than preceding it and wonder if it doesn't, perhaps, contain GAC though your correspondent seems knowledgeable enough about what is going on to have mentioned it if it were. Despite my earlier surmise that they would not adjust pH and hardness to protect the distribution apparently they are doing so by dissolving chalk (note that in an earlier post I said lime leaving out the word 'stone' when I really meant 'lime stone' which is calcium carbonate not that plain lime wouldn't work as well) with sulfuric acid. As no quantitative data was given I can't estimate what the hardness and sulfate contents should be but it seems that 4 ppm is pretty low for a system adding sulfuric acid unless they are dosing at a very low level which may be the case.

I ve received my report today. I bottled my water in a 50 cl plastic bottle on a Sunday, I then shipped the bottle on Monday and they tested the water 10 days after which was Thursday yesterday to have the results ready today. I was lucky because they offered me a free testing of my sample although paying 20 euros for shipping, quite ridiculous. Sodium was not tested and the pH was extremely low, although my bottle was filled and sealed very well!

What should I pay attention and can I take any measurements as valuable or this test was just useless? Sodium would have been interesting because the levels should be high as the water comes from the sea which explains the chloride levels to be high!

View attachment 1477660450450.jpg

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

The lab folks always remind us that pH and alkalinity need to be measured on-site, so I don't think you can rely on the numbers above for those two.

Russ

 

[Finlandbrews]

The lab folks always remind us that pH and alkalinity need to be measured on-site, so I don't think you can rely on the numbers above for those two.

Russ

That is sad, anyway I will get an aquarium alkalinity testing kit in 2/3 weeks and will start measuring those! It's crazy that the pH went from 8.9 to 6.06 in a sealed bottle! Would that change have happened if the container had been stainless steel? From that decrease in pH and the final alkalinity value which they gave me, are we able to have an estimate of the alkalinity at the time of bottling? And what about the minerals, did any of them change or these are stable?

 

[ajdelange]

The problem with deferring analysis until well after collection is that the sample can exchange CO2 with the air. In a sealed bottle that can't happen. Though it is not really germane to the problem under discussion it is worth mentioning that unless you brew with water that has been just drawn from the tap and protected from the atmosphere it may be better to let the water stand for some time exposed to the air before sending off the sample as the sample will be more representative of what you will actually brew with than the sample straight from the tap. In any case loss or pickup of CO2 from the air may change the pH by quite a bit but the actual pH of brewing liquor is not really important. It is the alkalinity that we really care about and that doesn't change much.

Now with respect to the sample in question: a pH of 6.06 seems rather strange. You did not put pH 8.9 water into a bottle and have it drop to pH 6.06 in the bottle. Either the water you bottled was at pH 6.06 when you took the sample or the pH measurement at the lab was wrong. We have no way of knowing which is the case so the best bet would be for you to obtain a pH meter and check at the source. As I noted, pH really isn't that important: alkalinity is but a pH meter has many uses around the brewery besides checking the source liquor.

As I understand the process used at your plant sea water is stripped of pretty much everything except sodium and chloride by the RO filter and then some chalk is dissolved in the water by the use of sulfuric acid in order to add hardness. There is really no reason to want hardness in the water for uses other than brewing except to protect the distribution piping by having some CaCO3 deposit on the pipes so the water itself can't corrode them. If you do this you do not want the pH to go as low as 6.06 as that puts the water's pH 3.7 pH units below the pH at which deposition would occur. One hypothesis is that the operator slipped and over dosed or set the H2SO4 injector too high so that output pH got as low as 6.06 but if that were the case the sulfate level would be 16.4 mg/L in the finished water (assuming the RO unit removed all the sulfate in the sea water feed). As reported sulfate is only 12 that seems to eliminate this hypothesis and point back to a bad pH measurement at the lab.

Taking the report as accurate a sample of of your water at pH 6.06 exposed to air would loose CO2 to it until the pH rose to 7.88. At that point CO2 in the water is in equilibrium with that in the air and no further loss (or pH increase) will take place. Probably the most important piece of information in this post is that under that set of circumstances the alkalinity would increase but only slightly to 20.46. This means that you do not have to worry about the delayed processing of your sample. None of the other ions are effected by CO2 exchange when the calcium level is this low.

We can also tell from this report that the sodium is about 98 mg/L (4.26 mEq/L) which is pretty close to the chloride at 4.08 mEq/L which makes sense. But that much chloride (145 mg/L) represents quite a bit. Paired with so much sodium the water, and beers made with it, might taste a wee bit salty. Not surprising given the water's origin. A solution to this would be a second RO treatment by a small unit in your house. This would bring sodium and chloride (and everything else) down to effectively 0 levels and all these concerns would go away.

Nitrate at 8.9 mg/L is not a problem.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

AJ - I see ward labs reporting alkalinity on samples shipped to their lab, but both labs we deal with insist it be measured on-site. Would you comment on that?

 

[ajdelange]

When hardness and alkalinity are small as in the example we just did and the pH is low the sample is saturated WRT CO2 but not CaCO3. In such a case if the sample is held exposed to air prior to analysis CO2 will leave the water until it is no longer super saturated WRT CO2 (0.0002 atm) causing the pH to rise and the conversion of the remaining CO2 to HCO3- which increases the alkalinity. The alkalinity increase is small but it is nevertheless not the alkalinity at the sampling point and the pH can be a couple of points.

Now consider the same situation (pH ~ 6) but with calcium hardness totaling 300 of which 200 is temporary (alkalinity 200 ppm as CaCO3). At equilibrium with air a solution of CaHCO3 over CaCO3 is saturated at pH 8.3 with both hardness and alkalinity equal to about 100 so the hypothesized solution is super saturated WRT both. CO2 will leave the solution and CaCO3 will precipitate causing an increase in pH from 6 to 8.3 and a decrease in alkalinity from 200 to 50. This is a dramatic change in alkalinity. It's what we do to decarbonate water when we boil it and the result is the same but without the heat to drive the CO2 out faster and decrease the solubility of CaCO3 it takes longer. In any case, the alkalinity, which we do care about, changes appreciably over time in this case.

Thus, clearly, good practice is to measure the sample as quickly as possible after it is drawn. In cases where we don't care about the pH (brewing) but do care about the alkalinity we can get away with a long delay in samples supersaturated WRT CO2 but not CaCO3. Where we are saturated WRT both it is indeed better to do the alkalinity titration on the spot. Second best is to fill the sample bottle completely full and do it gently so that no CO2 has a chance to escape.

But.... If I put 500 mg of CaCO3 in a sealed container with 1 L of water and pressurize to 0.618 atm partial pressure of CO2 and shake/stir long enough all the CaCO3 will dissolve and the water will be at pH 6 with alkalinity 484 and hardness 500. If I now release the CO2 pressure and let the mix come into equilibrium with the air I'll eventually have water with pH 8.3, alkalinity of 100 and calcium hardness of 100 over 400 mg of white powder lying on the bottom of the container. If I draw off a small sample and take it to the lab they will report alkalinity of 100. Big error. But, OTOH, if I do the alkalinity titration on the flask with the powder in it I will measure alkalinity of 484.

The overall conclusion is that if you are careful and know what you are about it doesn't really matter how long the sample is held. In the practical world it is clearly best to just measure at the source.

 

[Finlandbrews]

When hardness and alkalinity are small as in the example we just did and the pH is low the sample is saturated WRT CO2 but not CaCO3. In such a case if the sample is held exposed to air prior to analysis CO2 will leave the water until it is no longer super saturated WRT CO2 (0.0002 atm) causing the pH to rise and the conversion of the remaining CO2 to HCO3- which increases the alkalinity. The alkalinity increase is small but it is nevertheless not the alkalinity at the sampling point and the pH can be a couple of points.

Now consider the same situation (pH ~ 6) but with calcium hardness totaling 300 of which 200 is temporary (alkalinity 200 ppm as CaCO3). At equilibrium with air a solution of CaHCO3 over CaCO3 is saturated at pH 8.3 with both hardness and alkalinity equal to about 100 so the hypothesized solution is super saturated WRT both. CO2 will leave the solution and CaCO3 will precipitate causing an increase in pH from 6 to 8.3 and a decrease in alkalinity from 200 to 50. This is a dramatic change in alkalinity. It's what we do to decarbonate water when we boil it and the result is the same but without the heat to drive the CO2 out faster and decrease the solubility of CaCO3 it takes longer. In any case, the alkalinity, which we do care about, changes appreciably over time in this case.

Thus, clearly, good practice is to measure the sample as quickly as possible after it is drawn. In cases where we don't care about the pH (brewing) but do care about the alkalinity we can get away with a long delay in samples supersaturated WRT CO2 but not CaCO3. Where we are saturated WRT both it is indeed better to do the alkalinity titration on the spot. Second best is to fill the sample bottle completely full and do it gently so that no CO2 has a chance to escape.

But.... If I put 500 mg of CaCO3 in a sealed container with 1 L of water and pressurize to 0.618 atm partial pressure of CO2 and shake/stir long enough all the CaCO3 will dissolve and the water will be at pH 6 with alkalinity 484 and hardness 500. If I now release the CO2 pressure and let the mix come into equilibrium with the air I'll eventually have water with pH 8.3, alkalinity of 100 and calcium hardness of 100 over 400 mg of white powder lying on the bottom of the container. If I draw off a small sample and take it to the lab they will report alkalinity of 100. Big error. But, OTOH, if I do the alkalinity titration on the flask with the powder in it I will measure alkalinity of 484.

The overall conclusion is that if you are careful and know what you are about it doesn't really matter how long the sample is held. In the practical world it is clearly best to just measure at the source.

Thanks for the comments ajdelange! It is however hard to understand every parts of your teaching... I'm going to visit the RO plant tomorrow on the island and I will be able to ask questions to the person who treats the water after the RO has taken place. I would like to ask you what questions or comments could I provide to the person who treats the water (remember the person is not a professional but an inhabitant of the village who has gotten some instructions on what to do). I know my mineral levels more or less after the water test made by the Murphy & Son laboratory in England and your great explanations about chloride and sodium being so high while the rest is low! I'm wondering about the hardness and alkalinity now, I'm not sure the lab test was reliable with results of 22 ppm hardness and 20 ppm alkalinity as the water was tested 11 days after sampling. I'm very sorry if I seem not to understand but I have problems understanding alkalinity and hardness how they relate or differ and how they affect the change in pH. I'm gonna make a batch tomorrow and I want to treat my water to have it come to a better profile. I have been wondering about using campden salts for removing potential chloramines (I'm still not aware about levels of chlorine and/or chloramines in my water... This is a question I will ask what disinfectant is used and to what concentration. I have a chlorine test kit coming soon though) and adding some calcium sulfates for better mash pH and yeast health as my calcium is ridiculously low and this might have affected the taste of my beer. As well I have phosphoric acid 10 to use but I still have to know how does it work on reducing the ph/alkalinity of my water, could you maybe explain what happens when phosphoric acid is added, does it lower alkalinity and/or hardness or the pH?

I really want to understand water composition better as I believe it is the starting point of any good beer but I'm surprised to read from the "experimental homebrewing book" that "water treatment is one of the last thing to tackle in the effort to tweak their beers to perfection" (page 159).

I understand how minerals, chlorine and metals can give certain flavours to beer but my biggest problem is to understand what reactions occur in the brewing and fermentation processes with relation to alkalinity and hardness?

 

[ajdelange]

I would like to ask you what questions or comments could I provide to the person who treats the water (remember the person is not a professional but an inhabitant of the village who has gotten some instructions on what to do).

The fact that he is blindly following instructions which he may not understand is going to make this difficult. But obvious questions are
1. What is the ionic composition of the feed (sea) water?
2. What are the rejection levels for each ion or what is the composition of the permeate (RO output water)
3. Is the feed water pre-treated (pH adjusted, softened.....). If so, how?
4. What is added to the permeate? How much?
5. How is the final pH adjusted?
6. What are the saturation pH, pH, hardness and alkalinity targets for the product water.
7. How is the water chlorinated? Is ammonia used?

WRT 4 and 5: I think you had indicated earlier that food grade chalk was added to the permeate and treated with sulfuric acid. Find out as much about that as you can. Are the chemicals injected in-line? Is the flow of sulfuric acid adjusted by a pH controller etc.?

I know my mineral levels more or less after the water test made by the Murphy & Son laboratory in England and your great explanations about chloride and sodium being so high while the rest is low! I'm wondering about the hardness and alkalinity now, I'm not sure the lab test was reliable with results of 22 ppm hardness and 20 ppm alkalinity as the water was tested 11 days after sampling.

I don't think you need to worry about the accuracy of the Murphy testing with respect to alkalinity and hardness. As I indicated in my previous post these don't change much over time unless the water is super saturated (which yours does not appear to be) and it is exposed to air (which yours wasn't as it was in a tightly capped bottle). If you have concerns about actual hardness and alkalinity obtain some aquarium hardness and alkalinity test kits and check this yourself. As I believe the aquarium hobby is very popular in Europe these kits should not be difficult to obtain. Most people in the States use kits made in Europe.

The one thing I don't like about the Murphy test results is the pH. It would not make sense for your facility to put out a product with pH that low. That's why I'm asking the question about the sulfuric acid addition. If more sulfuric acid than intended is added the pH will indeed go low thus reducing alkalinity. If you add 100 mg/L CaCO3 to a liter of water your alkalinity can be anywhere between 51 at pH 8.3 to 42 at pH 7 (I'd expect them to set pH between 7 and 8.3) to 16 at pH 6 depending on how much acid they dose.

I'm very sorry if I seem not to understand but I have problems understanding alkalinity and hardness how they relate or differ and how they affect the change in pH.

Alkalinity is a measure of the proton absorbing property of water. In drinking water it is the amount of acid required to convert all the carbonate and bicarbonate to carbon dioxide and thus remove all carbonate and bicarbonate from the water. The more alkaline the water the more acid the brewer needs to get proper mash pH.

Hardness is the sum total of the magnesium and calcium ion content. They have an effect on mash pH too but it is quite small compared to that of alkalinity.

Try looking at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=473408 It may help you to understand better.

I'm gonna make a batch tomorrow and I want to treat my water to have it come to a better profile. I have been wondering about using campden salts for removing potential chloramines (I'm still not aware about levels of chlorine and/or chloramines in my water... This is a question I will ask what disinfectant is used and to what concentration.

You can usually tell whether you have chloramines with a simple sniff test. See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=361073. A test kit is always best, of course. If there are no chloramines (no ammonia at the plant) just letting the water stand in small volumes over night is adequate to remove the chlorine. In case of uncertainty a campden tablet (or part of one) is always very simple insurance.

... adding some calcium sulfates for better mash pH and yeast health as my calcium is ridiculously low and this might have affected the taste of my beer.

Calcium does have an effect but, as noted above, a relatively small one on mash pH. It lowers it.

As well I have phosphoric acid 10 to use but I still have to know how does it work on reducing the ph/alkalinity of my water, could you maybe explain what happens when phosphoric acid is added, does it lower alkalinity and/or hardness or the pH?

Mash contains components which absorb protons (light colored malts, the alkalinity in the water, alkali added by the brewer) and components which give off protons (dark colored malts, acids added by the brewer, calcium ion reacting with phosphate from the malt). The amount of protons given off or absorbed by a component depend on the pH. For a mash of a given composition there is a pH at which the protons given off by the emitters are exactly equal in number to the ones absorbed by the absorbers. This is the mash pH. To control it we adjust the relative amounts of mash components such that the balancing pH is the pH we want. Thus if the balancing pH is too high we can add some acid (such as the 10% phosphoric you mentioned) to shift it downward.

This is explained in greater detail at http://www.wetnewf.org/pdfs/estimating-mash-ph.html

I really want to understand water composition better as I believe it is the starting point of any good beer but I'm surprised to read from the "experimental homebrewing book" that "water treatment is one of the last thing to tackle in the effort to tweak their beers to perfection" (page 159).

That's because you don't really have to do much more than what is in the Primer (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460) to get a good beer but if you do you wind up with intricate, though not complex calculations such as the ones in the wetnewf article.

 

[Finlandbrews]

Thanks, I will ask as many of these questions but ammonia is important question to ask!! If I understand well alkalinity, carbonate and bicarbonate are the most important ions to focus on and understand? How do these carbonate and bicarbonate form after the RO treatment, are they added or do they build up based on the composition of water after RO treatment? Also, Murphy laboratory measured 6.06 but I know from my local water tests that the pH of my water should be 8.9 as this was measured in two buildings on the island (the hotel and the pilot house). Can we know based on the data provided to me by Murphy and that my pH is 8.9 what my alkalinity, carbonate and bicarbonate could be?

 

[ajdelange]

If I understand well alkalinity, carbonate and bicarbonate are the most important ions to focus on and understand?

In drinking water alkalinity is caused by bicarbonate with a small contribution from carbonate. Those must be under control of good beer is to be made. Most of the alkalinity has to be neutralized. This means converting bicarbonate and carbonate to CO2.

How do these carbonate and bicarbonate form after the RO treatment, are they added or do they build up based on the composition of water after RO treatment?

In my understanding based on your previous posts they are added by dosing the RO water with chalk. Chalk (calcium carbonate) does not dissolve in water and so they add acid. The amount of acid they use determines the pH and the relative amounts of carbonate, bicarbonate and carbonic acid (CO2) in the water all derived in this case from the added chalk. If too much sulfuric acid is used the pH will be too low and the alkalinity will be too low. Neither of these would be desirable in terms of protecting the distrubution system from eventual corrosion so I suspect the low pH reading from Murphy. Either Murphy bobbled the reading or the plant operator slipped when dosing sulfuric acid.

Also, Murphy laboratory measured 6.06 but I know from my local water tests that the pH of my water should be 8.9 as this was measured in two buildings on the island (the hotel and the pilot house). Can we know based on the data provided to me by Murphy and that my pH is 8.9 what my alkalinity, carbonate and bicarbonate could be?

We can guess but we must assume that Murphy's measurements (pH and alkalinity) are accurate and the that the plant did in fact slip and add more sulfuric acid than was intended at the time of the sample you sent in. Based on those assumptions your alkalinity would be about 60 were the same amount of chalk dosed but with only enough acid to lower pH to 8.9.


I'll note that when your alkalinity is modest like this you can simply eliminate its effect without even knowing what it is. You just do what I strongly suspect the plant may have done: add more acid until the pH is low enough that the effective alkalinity is 0. This would be mash pH in brewing. To do this, of course, you need a pH meter.

 

[mabrungard]

Unless the water piping system is extremely long, NO water utility adds ammonia to their water to create chloramines. Treatment by chloramines is more costly since they are adding another chemical and the resulting chloramines content has a significantly lower kill efficiency than straight chlorine.

Chloramines are used when the source water has dissolved organics that would react with straight chlorine. Chloramines are safer in that case.

If the water is RO, there is no little chance that the water has ammonia or is treated with chloramines.

 

[Finlandbrews]

Unless the water piping system is extremely long, NO water utility adds ammonia to their water to create chloramines. Treatment by chloramines is more costly since they are adding another chemical and the resulting chloramines content has a significantly lower kill efficiency than straight chlorine.

Chloramines are used when the source water has dissolved organics that would react with straight chlorine. Chloramines are safer in that case.

If the water is RO, there is no little chance that the water has ammonia or is treated with chloramines.

The water piping is about 100 meters from the RO plant to my house and this plant treats about 4000 cubic litres per year. Can't the RO treatment of Baltic sea water leave dissolved organics so that ammonia would née to be used?

 

[mabrungard]

Dissolved Organics typically have a relatively large molecular diameter and they don't pass through the membrane in a significant concentration.

 

[Finlandbrews]

Dissolved Organics typically have a relatively large molecular diameter and they don't pass through the membrane in a significant concentration.

Ok great!

 

[Finlandbrews]

I didn't manage to get much information as the person who treats the water treats it by instructions given to him a long time ago and doesn't grasp everything on water composition. Could you comment on these information I got below:

- the end pH of the water which is released for consumption is 7.55 and the Baltic sea water pH is 7.2.

- they said natrium hypochlorite (I think it showed that it contains 10-15% of chlorine) is used and no ammonia is used. They said the chlorine concentration is planned so that 0.2/0.3 ppm is in the water when released for consumption and the end chlorine level should be 0.1/0.2 when getting out from tap.

- after sand filtration and chalk(caco3) filtration (btw is chalk process a filtration process or a process to give hardness to water for protecting the pipes from erosion once released) the water pH was 8.57. They said it can vary sometimes but the change is rather low. Acid sulfuric is then used to lower the pH from 8.57 to 7.55. Also this final pH can be different although variations are low.

-Something I found very surprising is that in 2015 when they made the last test from the hotel which is literally 50 meters from the release of the RO water, the pH measured was 8.9 and the operating person of the RO system said "pH should raise, but that pH measured was way higher than we want (although no target indicated) because of uncalibrated meter (very strange in my opinion... ).

-Also, he explained that calcium sulfate is added for taste as I believe the calcium and sulfate levels are so low that it should be added. I then asked about what concentration of CaSo4 is added or what are the target concentration for calcium and sulfate and this could not be answered. At some point after, he said that Caso4 is actually added through the chalk process which got me very confused...

- also he said out of the water taken from the sea 2/3 of the water volume is released back into the sea.

- no data regarding raw water composition and target water composition for release to consumption!

No relevant info could be extracted regarding alkalinity and hardness targets (concentration targets).

- I heard yesterday that one person in the village said he doesn't drink his water from the tap because of a mold taste. Another person who treats the waste (****) said that he thinks pH of water is too high (I don't know the relevance and what is meant by too high pH from that person but it seems it is related to efficient processing of wastewater) For me the taste of the water is not mold, it is more like chlorine taste but I find the aroma and taste slightly less strong now that outdoor temp is in the freezing range compare to in summer and I find the mouthfeel of the water more round than on the mainland, can this be related to high sodium and chloride concentrations?

Funny anecdote was that in the old days (30 years ago) the island was using distillation for treating the sea water thanks to a 32kw engine and he said it didn't work.

 

[Finlandbrews]

I just spent half an hour calibrating my cheap pH and I think I've been relatively successful with 0.1/0.2 pH big maximum of margin error. I know it is a big gap but I believe it gave me a good indication of my tap water. This cheap pH meter is normally a 3 points calibration but I calibrated it at 6.86 in PH 7 liquid solution and then at 4.00 in pH 4 liquid solution and I retested measurements 3 times in each of these solutions after calibration. I got 4.07 at 4 and 6.98 at pH 7 and I tested my tap water and a bottled water and this is what I wanted to ask now because the result is rather surprising to me compare to the information which I had and I thought was correct. The RO plant said it is releasing the water at 7.55 pH and now I tested it and it stopped at 6.88 pH from my tap. Strange enough this level because I understood from the RO plant operator that the pH should actually raise slightly. On the other hand, the Murphy laboratory in UK had measured my pH at 6.06. My question is that can these data follow a logic? Can they be relatively accurate? Also I tested a commercial bottled water open 2 days ago which seems to be distilled as it has no minerals concentration indicated on the bottle and a I got a stable 6.25 pH measurement reading, is that possible?

I still have to find out what are the calcium concentrations in the water because the RO operator said we re adding calcium and sulfate for taste but these were measured by Murphy and son at 2 ppm for CA and 8 ppm for sulfate! So either they disappear or they are added in such low concentration that maybe they don't affect the taste and could be why I get a not-regular-taste from tap compare to other tap waters in finland?

 

[ajdelange]

- the end pH of the water which is released for consumption is 7.55 and the Baltic sea water pH is 7.2.

Will comment on these in a bit.

- they said natrium hypochlorite (I think it showed that it contains 10-15% of chlorine) is used and no ammonia is used.

I would have been very surprised were it any thing more complicated than that or if it involved chlorine gas. The use of the hypochlorite is considered the safest approach but I always remember that the largest accidental release of chlorine gas in a US plant was caused when a trucker accidentally dumped his load of sulfuric acid into a hypochlorite storage tank.

They said the chlorine concentration is planned so that 0.2/0.3 ppm is in the water when released for consumption and the end chlorine level should be 0.1/0.2 when getting out from tap.

That is pretty low and should be easily removed just by letting the water stand as the sniff test in the Sticky should reveal.

- after sand filtration and chalk(caco3) filtration (btw is chalk process a filtration process or a process to give hardness to water for protecting the pipes from erosion once released) the water pH was 8.57.

It can actually be both. The water in passing through a compacted bed of limestone (chalk) particles will dissolve some of it thus increasing the pH, alkalinity and calcium hardness. At the same time particulate matter will deposit on the top of the bed (assuming it is fed from the top). If the bed is then back washed, as it most probably is, that matter will be washed away.

They said it can vary sometimes but the change is rather low.

Some variation would be expected. This would be caused by differences in flow rate and bed compaction (in other words, by the length of time the water is in contact with the chalk) and by the carbon dioxide content of the water.

Acid sulfuric is then used to lower the pH from 8.57 to 7.55. Also this final pH can be different although variations are low.

The pH of 8.57 suggests, but does not say with certainty, that the treated water will have a calcium content of 11.4 mg/L and an alkalinity of about 30 ppm as CaCO3. This assumes that the water coming into the lime bed has had all the calcium and bicarbonate from the sea water removed and that the water in the bed came to thermodynamic equilibrium which it definitely does not do. With this and the fact that the RO system is not perfect the actual numbers will doubtless be a little higher than this.

Adding enough sulfuric acid to reduce the pH to 7.55 only requires a tiny amount and does not change the alkalinity very much - only to 28. I don't see why they do this as even without the sulfuric acid the water is under saturated with respect to CaCO3 and won't afford any protection to piping. Adding the acid only makes it less so.

I believe the WHO recommended upper limit for pH is 8.5 so perhaps that's why they do it.

-Something I found very surprising is that in 2015 when they made the last test from the hotel which is literally 50 meters from the release of the RO water, the pH measured was 8.9 and the operating person of the RO system said "pH should raise, but that pH measured was way higher than we want (although no target indicated) because of uncalibrated meter (very strange in my opinion... ).

A measurement with an uncalibrated meter is worthless.

-Also, he explained that calcium sulfate is added for taste as I believe the calcium and sulfate levels are so low that it should be added. I then asked about what concentration of CaSo4 is added or what are the target concentration for calcium and sulfate and this could not be answered. At some point after, he said that Caso4 is actually added through the chalk process which got me very confused...

He was referring to the fact that calcium carbonate (limestone/chalk) reacts with sulfuric acid releasing CO2 to the atmosphere and leaving calcium and sulfate ions in the water. The reaction is:

Ca++ + CO3-- + 2H+ + SO4-- ----> CO2 +H2O + Ca++ + SO4--

This is the same result that would be obtained by adding calcium sulfate (CaSO4) to the water.

So it appears that the chalk and acid treatment is for taste rather than pipe protection. As the same effect could be attained by dosing gypsum without having to deal with hazardous sulfuric acid we wonder why they do it that way and suppose it must be to get the filtering that the limestone bed affords.

- also he said out of the water taken from the sea 2/3 of the water volume is released back into the sea.

33% recovery is easily realized and as there should be no problem with returning a brine concentrated by 50% back to the sea there is no reason to push the plant to higher recovery.

- no data regarding raw water composition and target water composition for release to consumption!

From the rough calculations above we conclude that the water composition would be something like

Calcium: 11.4 mg/L (22.8 ppm as CaCO3)
Alkalinity: 28 ppm as CaCO3
Sulfate: 2 mg/L

and recognize that all these could be a bit higher given that some ions will make it through the RO membranes. These are not terribly out of line with what the Murphy report showed. In particular its higher sulfate level and lower pH and alkalinity numbers are all consistent with an over dose of sulfuric acid at the time of that sample.

The main conclusion to be drawn from all this is that the water is essentially RO water. In planning brews with it you can consider it ion free (with respect to alkalinity and hardness - not sodium and chloride!).

- I heard yesterday that one person in the village said he doesn't drink his water from the tap because of a mold taste.

If you have that problem an activated charcoal filter (which is often used to 'polish' water at the outputs of water treatment plants) should solve it for you.

Another person who treats the waste (****) said that he thinks pH of water is too high (I don't know the relevance and what is meant by too high pH from that person

In the States we would be tempted to say "Well he don't know ****" but I guess we can't say that here.

but it seems it is related to efficient processing of wastewater)

Probably has to do with the pH his bacteria like. He should be able to adjust pH into a more favorable (lower?) range by dosing acid.

For me the taste of the water is not mold, it is more like chlorine taste but I find the aroma and taste slightly less strong now that outdoor temp is in the freezing range compare to in summer

That is suggestive of something organic. I would definitely try a carbon filter or one of those pitcher things that contains a carbon filter.

and I find the mouthfeel of the water more round than on the mainland, can this be related to high sodium and chloride concentrations?

Brewers add chloride to beers to enhance the mouthfeel and often describe the effect as giving a round quality to the beer. So yes, definitely.

 

[ajdelange]

The RO plant said it is releasing the water at 7.55 pH and now I tested it and it stopped at 6.88 pH from my tap.

pH is, as is everything else measured relative to accepted standards which are, in this case, buffer solutions. You are taking pH measurements and the plant is taking pH measurements. For valid comparisons both of you have to be calibrating properly using acceptable (freshly made with DI water) buffers. And your meters must both be capable of holding calibrations for as long as necessary to get the measurements. This may be relevant here as you mention that the plant sometimes takes measurements without calibrating. For tips on how to mange this process see:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=302256

In that post a stability test is described. If your meter can't pass the stability test it is really not to be trusted.

Strange enough this level because I understood from the RO plant operator that the pH should actually raise slightly. On the other hand, the Murphy laboratory in UK had measured my pH at 6.06. My question is that can these data follow a logic? Can they be relatively accurate?

There is a logical explanation that I have offered before: The sulfuric acid dosing controller is defective or not set up properly such that it sometimes dispenses more sulfuric acid than it should. This explains the low pH, high sulfate and low alkalinity values in the Murphy test and your low pH reading but there are other explanations too.

Also I tested a commercial bottled water open 2 days ago which seems to be distilled as it has no minerals concentration indicated on the bottle and a I got a stable 6.25 pH measurement reading, is that possible?

It is entirely possible for distilled water to have a pH as low as 6.25.

I still have to find out what are the calcium concentrations in the water because the RO operator said we re adding calcium and sulfate for taste but these were measured by Murphy and son at 2 ppm for CA and 8 ppm for sulfate!

In the report you posted in #23 Calcium is reported at 8 and sulfate at 12.

So either they disappear or they are added in such low concentration that maybe they don't affect the taste and could be why I get a not-regular-taste from tap compare to other tap waters in finland?

At either level they aren't going to have much of an effect on taste.