Stouts,with very soft water

[Double-R]

Using Ez water 3.0; The only way to get my Estimated pH in range id to add 45 grams on baking soda. Is this a insane amount.?.I don't have slaked lime.
I want to treat all the water mash+sparge "16" gallons. Gypsum and Epsom was added to get into recommended "Range". Going toward a American style stout.

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 6
Mg: 1
Na: 10
Cl: 10
SO4: 6
HCO3: 14

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 16 / 0
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 28.8

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 15 / 0<<<<<< Gypsum
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 6 / 0<<<<<< Epsom salt
NaHCO3: 45 / 0<<<<<< Baking soda
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 62 / 62
Mg: 10 / 10
Na: 213 / 213
Cl: 10 / 10
SO4: 183 / 183
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.05 / 0.05

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 453
RA: 403
Estimated pH: 5.45
(room temp)

 

[ajdelange]

Using Ez water 3.0; The only way to get my Estimated pH in range id to add 45 grams on baking soda. Is this a insane amount.?.I don't have slaked lime.

Yes, absolutely. If it is a typical dry Irish stout (pale ale malt, 10% roast barley, some flaked barley) then it needs no water treatment though you might want to add a bit of calcium chloride to mellow it out a bit. If it is some sort of super Imperial double plus ultra stout with a ton of black/roast malt/barley you might need a modest amount of alkali but you only want to add enough to keep the mash pH from going too low. How much that is depends on the particular grains used.

 

[DSmith]

You have all your water as mash water (2.22 qt/lb). That'll drive the expected mash pH to be somewhat higher than expected compared to mashing thicker.

 

[Double-R]

Screen shot.. At zero adjustments.
Want to treat all the water mash+sparge. Done this every time on Pale ales, Ipa"s,Brown ales and so on..
It calls for 9 gallons of sparge water. So i guess i need to Sparge the 9G.. then add baking soda a Tbsp at a time to get to the ph range.. "with my meter"... I guess.. Grain bill is for 10g.. might do 5g just to see..

 

[mabrungard]

Another option is to not add the gypsum and epsom to the mash to avoid reducing the RA of the mash water. Add those mineral additions directly to the kettle in this case. The other thing that can be done to reduce the pH drop is to reserve some or all of the roast grains from the mash. They are added in the last 15 minutes to extract their flavor and color.

Adding that much sodium to the brewing water is not a good idea. Do purchase some pickling lime for your brewing use. Its cheap. If you can't find it locally, buy it on line. The tap water looks great, but this is a case where the water's low alkalinity make it difficult to brew some styles (like stout).

 

[DSmith]

The screenshot is very blurry in the grain bill. Can you please post the recipe grain bill for 28.8 lb and 16 gallons of total water? I'd like to see one that EZ Water shows a very low expected pH.

 

[Double-R]

Hear are pics ,1st is recipe. going for 5gal not 10 as before.
Trying to keep it simple.
2nd pick is a better screen shot of 3.0.. Ph wont go up without a boatload of
baking soda..
Ive use EZ 3.0 , every time ive made ipa,s/ pale ales,browns all great.I use Mosher's Ideal Pale, profile and love it.
But this is my first stout... So here i am.
Maybe, I will hold back the 1.5# of crystal and 3ozs of roasted barley.
And add it toward the end of the mash. Or steep them..

 

[bobbrews]

Stouts should be made with much softer water than other styles. The only thing that you REALLY need additional is calcium. I suggest adding only calcium hydroxide, or pickling lime.

For a stout:

50 ppm calcium
2 ppm magnesium
<20ppm sodium
10-30 ppm chloride
10 ppm sulfate
<25 ppm bicarbonate

A ratio of about 1:3 sulphate to chloride may give best results for stouts or porters, but a 1:1 ratio is fine.

If you proceded with your following opening adjustments, you would have too much sodium, alkalinity, & sulfate.

Na: 213 / 213 Salt Lick
SO4: 183 / 183 Better for an IPA
Alkalinity (CaCO3): 453 Way too high

 

[mabrungard]

Only the most delicate flavored beers benefit from brewing with 'soft' water. The low mineralization of a soft water provides a more neutral palate for the delicate malt and hop flavor from the beer to shine through. All other beers are more appropriately brewed with moderately hard to hard water. 50 ppm calcium is moderately hard water.

The thing more typically needed for a stout is 'adequate' alkalinity to avoid depressing the mash pH too much from the roast malt additions.

 

[Double-R]

First thanks to all, trying to help.
Now if i use only "Lime".. 17 grams in mash water.
My ph seems to fall in range. Does that seem alot. It goes to 380(Ca ppm)
I really thought i had a grasp on Water..But stouts have thrown me for a loop.

 

[DSmith]

The most rent screenshot of the EZ water spreadsheet shows a potential problem. The crystal malt grain used with roasted malt colors will give very low pH, probably much lower than in real life. There's a post somewhere that states that you should follow the Northern Brewer grain categories for determining where your grains fit in with the EZ water categories:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/brewing/brewing-ingredients/grain-malts

Flaked grains can be classified as other without better information about their pH in distilled water.

I bet you'll see an actual mash pH about 5.5 if you added nothing to your tap water. You'll need to add some calcium and decide if that's using CaCl2 or CaSO4 or both based your desired Cl and SO4 in the final beer.

I did a few test mashes for a porter recently that had this much roasted malt and the EZ water spreadsheet was surprisingly accurate. The mash pH could have been accomplished by either straight tap water & acid, 50/50 tap & distilled/RO water & acid, or even higher percentages of distilled/RO water without acid. The brewer chose 50/50 tap & distilled water and recently claimed it's the best porter he made.

 

[bobbrews]

Only the most delicate flavored beers benefit from brewing with 'soft' water. The low mineralization of a soft water provides a more neutral palate for the delicate malt and hop flavor from the beer to shine through. All other beers are more appropriately brewed with moderately hard to hard water. 50 ppm calcium is moderately hard water.

The thing more typically needed for a stout is 'adequate' alkalinity to avoid depressing the mash pH too much from the roast malt additions.

Read this please:

http://www.rpi.edu/dept/chem-eng/Biotech-Environ/beer/water2.htm

 

[DaleHair]

Read this please:

http://www.rpi.edu/dept/chem-eng/Biotech-Environ/beer/water2.htm

With that background I don't think it was intended to be read.

 

[bobbrews]

Yeah, weird green background. I agree. The article however was taken from another publication.

 

[mabrungard]

I'm hoping that a simplistic magazine article that was authored over 13 years ago is not the sole source of information on brewing water chemistry. The level of information has progressed quite a bit since then.

 

[bobbrews]

Please. Elaborate.

What does it reference that you whole heartedly disagree with?

 

[afr0byte]

You entered your grains wrong. The chocolate malts (or whatever malts those are that are 350 and 400L) are supposed to be roast/toasted malts, not crystal. I'm referring to your second recipe.