Stepping DOWN a yeast starter

[Wesjmc]

So there are dozens of yeast starter threads, but I haven't found one that suggests stepping down a starter for a high gravity beer. I'd like to do this for my next batch and wanted some feedback on this method.

The way I see it, the advantage of pitching an entire large starter is that the yeast should be wide awake, active, and have a high cell count right when you pitch. The disadvantage is that a lot of bland starter wort is also dumped into your fermenter of finely crafted wort. On the flip-side, the advantage of chilling and decanting a large starter is that all the bland starter wort gets poured down the sink and doesn't end up in your beer, but the disadvantage is that the yeast are then dormant and require extra lag time to wake up and prepare themselves to ferment your wort.

So my proposed solution is to make a large starter. Let it ferment out completely. Chill it and decant it so you're left with a large cell count of dormant yeast. Once it warms back up to room temp pour in a much smaller volume of starter wort (maybe 1L). Give it 18-24 hrs to reach high krausen and then pitch it.

This has 3 big advantages:
1) You have an appropriately large cell count of yeast.
2) The yeast are active, healthy, and ready to ferment.
3) You are dumping a minimal amount of starter wort into your big, beautiful beer.

Does anyone see any holes in my plan? My goal is to brew the absolute best possible beer that I can. I don't mind extra planning, or an extra couple of days of preparation if it will yield superior results. I'm sick of making "pretty good" beer, and I want to make "amazing" beer. Is this a step in the right direction?

 

[phoenixs4r]

I'm assuming you've decanted and pitched before, and experienced a lag time?

From my experience I have not experienced lag time greater than a few hours with a starter that had been decanted. Did you allow the yeast to warm up prior to pitching?

 

[pabloj13]

I wouldn't waste your time. Cold crashing the yeast for a day or two isn't going to make them go dormant. My activity lag is basically the same when I direct pitch with the wort or cold crash and decant, assuming equal yeast count.

 

[arnoldk2]

I think your steps of what you want are spot on. I was in the school of crash cooling then decanting. I read the yeast book and it said that if your starter is less than 10% of your total volume then pitching the entire starter volume will not effect flavor. So normally I make a 1.5 liter starter on a stir plate. When I'm ready to pitch I pitch the whole thing. I can't detect any different flavors in the beers that I've brewed over and over again.

 

[pabloj13]

I think your steps of what you want are spot on. I was in the school of crash cooling then decanting. I read the yeast book and it said that if your starter is less than 10% of your total volume then pitching the entire starter volume will not effect flavor. So normally I make a 1.5 liter starter on a stir plate. When I'm ready to pitch I pitch the whole thing. I can't detect any different flavors in the beers that I've brewed over and over again.

I think that depends though. My house gets pretty warm where I stir my starters and they throw a very noticeable funk/ester mix at that temp (probably upper 80's). I think you would detect that in your beer for sure.

 

[arnoldk2]

I think that depends though. My house gets pretty warm where I stir my starters and they throw a very noticeable funk/ester mix at that temp (probably upper 80's). I think you would detect that in your beer for sure.

That could be. My temp is usually around the mid 70's.

 

[kh54s10]

If I am doing a 1 liter or smaller I pitch the whole thing (or when I do not allow enough time to cold crash).

When I cold crash, I decant most of the liquid and set it on my kitchen counter when I start my brew day. By the time I pitch it is at room temperature and the yeast should be active again. Most of the time I have action in about 4-5 hours and always by morning. So I see no need for any extra steps.

 

[helibrewer]

So there are dozens of yeast starter threads, but I haven't found one that suggests stepping down a starter for a high gravity beer. I'd like to do this for my next batch and wanted some feedback on this method.

The way I see it, the advantage of pitching an entire large starter is that the yeast should be wide awake, active, and have a high cell count right when you pitch. The disadvantage is that a lot of bland starter wort is also dumped into your fermenter of finely crafted wort. On the flip-side, the advantage of chilling and decanting a large starter is that all the bland starter wort gets poured down the sink and doesn't end up in your beer, but the disadvantage is that the yeast are then dormant and require extra lag time to wake up and prepare themselves to ferment your wort.

So my proposed solution is to make a large starter. Let it ferment out completely. Chill it and decant it so you're left with a large cell count of dormant yeast. Once it warms back up to room temp pour in a much smaller volume of starter wort (maybe 1L). Give it 18-24 hrs to reach high krausen and then pitch it.

This has 3 big advantages:
1) You have an appropriately large cell count of yeast.
2) The yeast are active, healthy, and ready to ferment.
3) You are dumping a minimal amount of starter wort into your big, beautiful beer.

Does anyone see any holes in my plan? My goal is to brew the absolute best possible beer that I can. I don't mind extra planning, or an extra couple of days of preparation if it will yield superior results. I'm sick of making "pretty good" beer, and I want to make "amazing" beer. Is this a step in the right direction?

If you are concerned you could modify the approach:

Crash the yeast, decant, then let it warm while you are brewing.
After chilling your wort, add about a liter to your decanted starter
Chill the wort to fermentation temp.
While the wort is chilling, your yeast are getting active on the wort addition and by the time you are cool enough to pitch, the yeast will be plenty active.

 

[Sulli]

Letting your decanted starter come up to room temp is the same as bringing your vial or smackpack up to room temp. Just the change in temperature will re-activate the yeast.

But if spending the extra time makes you feel better, adding a very small amount of wort certainly wouldn't hurt anything, it would be the equivalent of popping the "nutrient pouch" inside a smackpack.

So if I were going to try this (but I probably won't ), I would keep a small jar of 1.030ish wort in the fridge with the starter; On brew day decant as usual, but then add a very small amount, maybe ~200ml, of the chilled wort; bring to room temp as usual.

 

[Wesjmc]

Wow. Thanks for all the replies. I get the impression that I may be overthinking it. I knew letting the decanted starter warm back up to room temp would brink the yeast out of dormancy a bit. I just thought giving them some fresh 1.040 wort would REALLY get them active. I'm sure it would, but from these responses it sounds like the difference in yeast activity probably isn't as significant as I thought it would be.

I've just brewed my first 2 all-grain batches after probably 40+ extract batches over the past few years, and I'm just trying to tweak any aspect of my process that I think may improve the overall quality of my beer. A few of my beers have been amazing, but most of them have had very subtle off flavors here and there. I've always pitched a 1L starter for 1.050 - 1.080 beers. I know I've been under pitching for those bigger beers and probably stressing my yeast out a bit. So for my next big beer I'll just make a more appropriate (larger) starter, chill, decant, warm up, and pitch.

I think the biggest cause for some of my off flavors has been fermentation temps. Constantly tending to a swamp cooled carboy with a 77˚F ambient temp has surely caused my beer to suffer. I recently got a chest freezer + johnson thermostat that will improve my process much more than tweaking the process for my yeast starter, but that's a whole other thread.

Thanks!

 

[Sulli]

Getting your fermentation temps under control will improve your beers dramatically.

Your gonna love your new fermentation chamber, congrats!

 

[pabloj13]

Getting your fermentation temps under control will improve your beers dramatically.

Your gonna love your new fermentation chamber, congrats!

+1. That is going to make you VERY happy. Like another poster said, if you're really worried about it you could ladle a little cooled wort into the yeast while you're cooling the rest of your batch down to pitching temp. But personally I wouldn't waste my time. :rockin:

 

[cosmo]

I was actually thinking of doing the very same thing, just to squeeze out the best possible performance. Give it a try and let us know if it makes a difference.

 

[MalFet]

As another way of thinking about this, yeast are far more likely to build up energy reserve and stress-resistance compounds if you cold crash them. Sticking your starter in the fridge for 24 hours doesn't harm the yeast, and to the contrary encourages them to build up glycogen and trehalose reserves that will serve them well during their growth phase after you pitch.

Shorter lag time isn't always a good thing.