Starter using dry yeast??

[jcs401]

I know this may sound like a stupid question but can/has anyone made a started using dried yeast? I will be doing a simple ale recipe but I have not been getting a very vigorous fermentation so am thinking about trying a starter to ramp it up a bit. I don't order wyeast here in Texas on summer months due to transport temps. Has anyone ever done this? If so what's the best procedure?

 

[flars]

Yes, you can make a starter with dry yeast if you rehydrate it first, but it may not help if other variables are involved.

Less than vigorous fermentations mayu be due to temperature of the wort to low for the yeast, low fermentability of the wort, pitching dry yeast dry without rehydrating, and more.

Are you reaching a final gravity within the attenuation range for the yeast?

Some more details on why you think your fermentations are not vigorous enough, the yeast used, and original gravity of the problem beers would help.

 

[joshesmusica]

I have, but it's because I harvest from the starter instead of after fermentation.
But I also only do vitalizing starters (same day starter) as compared to the starters focused on yeast growth.
I am cheap and want every expense to pay for itself in this hobby, so I would prefer to not buy dry yeast every time either. So I rehydrated as per the manufacturer's instructions, then put that into the starter.

 

[jcs401]

Ok, so basically every brew with the exception of 1 or 2 have all had what only I can describe as "home brew" off flavored. I have been using many different ale kits from northern brewer. Extract, partial, AG.
I am insane with sanitation so I'm almost sure that's not a cause. I hit my OG gravity and FG within 1-2 of what it calls for. I use oxygen to agitate wort before pitching, a Johnson digital temp controller with thermo well to get accurate temp of wort fermentation, usually ales about 66-69 degrees fermentation I hold at. I have even gone as far as fermenting in kegs now so I can purge All oxygen out at start of fermentation and when needed transfer to secondary/serving with the brew never hitting the air to limit oxygenation.
I've been trying to eliminate and read/learn and feel my procedures for brew day are pretty spot on and use ro water as well. So I figured trying a batch or to maybe over pitching a bit with yeast and see if a vigorous fermentation may help. I just want to finally have a brew where I feel DAMN THATS GOOD, not ehh it's decent and drinkable by all means but not that WOW factor after a year or two. ANY HELP/SUGGESTIONS??

 

[flars]

What will your next brew be? We might be of more help starting with the recipe and procedure before the next brew day.

 

[jcs401]

I actually went back to more basic so this time it's a recipe from Austin Homebrew, summer wheat LME mini mash kit,
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1437060896.019146.jpg

 

[olivson]

I have even gone as far as fermenting in kegs now so I can purge All oxygen out at start of fermentation

Are you doing this when you pitch the yeast? Because the yeast need oxygen in the first 12-18 hours to multiply, if you take the oxygen out before they do that you probably just aren't getting enough cell growth, and they should use up any oxygen that is in there for cell growth so it shouldn't be necessary at all in primary

 

[Gavin C]

You can do a starter with hydrated yeast but there really is no benefit. A second pack is simpler and more time/cost effective.

If you want to get any kind of appreciable growth rate it needs to be at least 2L and arguably a lot more.

All the at DME and effort-v-second pack of dry yeast.

It's a no brainer in my view.

Your unlikely to do much harm with a big starter from a rehydrated dry yeast, the benefit to your brewing will be zero.

Where in TX are you. I don't get liquid yeast delivered anymore but my LHBS has a great selection. www.txbrewing.com

I have no affiliation just a very happy customer.

 

[flars]

Looks like this is a partial mash with other specialty grains. Hopefully the grains are fresh and crushed correctly. What yeast do you plan on using?

edit: Old grains can give an off flavor to the beer.

 

[jcs401]

-OLIVSON-
I pour my wort into my keg/primary, airfare with pure oxygen for about 1-2 min. Then pitch stir a bit and cap a put on airlock. I do push co2 into the keg to make sure the lid seals correctly however and the release the co2.

-GAVIN-
I live in cypress. Local brew stores are roughly 40 min from where I'm at and since I order a lot of supplies online due to at times cheaper
and less of a hassle to drive in traffic.

-FLARS-
I will be using safebrew WB-06. Don't believe the crushed grains are an issue?

 

[Gavin C]

....

-GAVIN-
I live in cypress. Local brew stores are roughly 40 min from where I'm at and since I order a lot of supplies online due to at times cheaper
and less of a hassle to drive in traffic...

Totally understand. Most vendors can ship it with an ice pack if you wnat liquid yeast. I've done it once or twice in the summer last year and the yeast was warm when I got it. Really warm. Not a risk I'm willing to accept anymore.

 

[jcs401]

That's what happened the last time so for summer I just do dry yeast unless I'm out next to local spot.
Here is the kit instructions by the way.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1437063475.427026.jpg

 

[jcs401]

I was told if I do this as a full boil to scale DOWN my buttering hops by 10-15%?
Can some one explain why I would do this if I'm boiling more wort at a time?

 

[joshesmusica]

I was told if I do this as a full boil to scale DOWN my buttering hops by 10-15%?
Can some one explain why I would do this if I'm boiling more wort at a time?

when you top off with water after the boil, you are diluting the entire thing. you have way too much wort in the kettle, so that's ok to dilute all those sugars. the problem is you also dilute down the hops because what you're diluting your liquid with has no hops bitterness in it. so if you're not going to dilute it, you will end up with a more bitter beer because you're getting the full power of the bitterness from the hops.

or to put it this way, you put x amount of hops in and it equals, let's say, 50 IBUs. but then you dilute it with hopless water, so let's say that might bring it down to 40 IBUs. But when you do the full boil, you are getting those 50 IBUs still, but not diluting them down.

hopefully that makes sense.

 

[TheMadKing]

You said you are using RO water, are you adding any minerals back in? Unless you're making pilsners or Kolsh's most style will benefit from some minerals, especially calcium, which is needed for yeast fermentation.

Also where in cypress? I was just there earlier this spring, beautiful country!

 

[ncbrewer]

I was told if I do this as a full boil to scale DOWN my buttering hops by 10-15%?
Can some one explain why I would do this if I'm boiling more wort at a time?

The traditional formulas, based on empirical testing, show hop utilization being affected by boil gravity - higher boil gravity results in lower hop utilization. So if you have a full boil, utilization will be higher. Therefore, you would need less hops with a full boil.

But in recent years, this theory has been challenged. You can find Glenn Tinseth's formula at this website: http://www.realbeer.com/hops/

 

[jcs401]

You said you are using RO water, are you adding any minerals back in? Unless you're making pilsners or Kolsh's most style will benefit from some minerals, especially calcium, which is needed for yeast fermentation.

Also where in cypress? I was just there earlier this spring, beautiful country!

Yes I am using RO water. I was u aware I should be adding minerals back in? What would I need ya think? Could this be an issue with flavors? I live on the Houston cypress line.

 

[thorHB]

Yes I am using RO water. I was u aware I should be adding minerals back in? What would I need ya think? Could this be an issue with flavors? I live on the Houston cypress line.

When you mentioned using RO and did not mention adding minerals back into the water, that was a red flag for me too. You need to find out the characteristics of your tap water and plug your numbers into one of the many spreadsheets out there (I use brunwater) to see if you need to make any adjustments based on the style of beer you are brewing.

 

[thorHB]

When you mentioned using RO and did not mention adding minerals back into the water, that was a red flag for me too. You need to find out the characteristics of your tap water and plug your numbers into one of the many spreadsheets out there (I use brunwater) to see if you need to make any adjustments based on the style of beer you are brewing.

This isn't as important with extract brewing because most of the minerals you need are within the extract itself. I see you are doing partial mashes. not sure how important it is with PM. Its very important with all grain though.

 

[kh54s10]

IMO, The yeast is not the source of your "homebrew" taste.

Do not do a starter from a pack of dry yeast. Just rehydrate it. There are enough yeast cells in the pack. Dry sprinkling is said to kill as much as 1/2 of the cells.

Try bottled spring water.

Try adding 1/3 of your extract at the beginning of the boil and the rest when you turn off the heat. This will keep the beer lighter in color and keep from scorching the extract.

Make sure your ingredients are fresh.

 

[TheMadKing]

Yes I am using RO water. I was u aware I should be adding minerals back in? What would I need ya think? Could this be an issue with flavors? I live on the Houston cypress line.

I would add 1 tsp of gypsum and 1 tsp of CaCl. That is the recommendation by Aj Delange over in the technical forums.

This isn't as important with extract brewing because most of the minerals you need are within the extract itself. I see you are doing partial mashes. not sure how important it is with PM. Its very important with all grain though.

Yes it's true that mineral additions aren't needed to adjust water pH for extract brewing, but the total lack of calcium in RO water will make for a poor fermentation since calcium is necessary for yeast growth. The lack of sulfate and chloride could also account for the "homebrew taste" being described. I know that went away for me when I switched to all-grain and started modifying my water chemistry.

 

[jcs401]

I am trying like hell to find my water chemistry where I live and cannot find anything. My zip is 77429 cypress tx

 

[TheMadKing]

I am trying like hell to find my water chemistry where I live and cannot find anything. My zip is 77429 cypress tx

You'll most likely have to send a sample to Ward labs and have it analyzed if you want your water profile. But if you're already using RO water that's fine, just adding the gypsum and calcium chloride will improve your beer imo. A lot of brewers go that route.

 

[eadavis80]

I did a starter with a pack of 04 that was old and I could not read the date on the pack, so I did the starter just to check if was viable yeast. I rehydrated the yeast prior to pitching in a starter and added some yeast nutrient to the starter wort. The fermentation was the most vigorous I've had in nearly 40 batches. And, it's cheaper than doing two packs of dry. You can buy a pound of DME for like $4. You can get a bunch of starter (you only need a 1/2 cup) of DME to do a starter, so like probably 8-10 starters I get out of a 1 pound bag of DME. So, 1/8th of $4 is certainly less than another $4 pack of dry yeast. Does it take time, sure - about 15 minutes. Figure out for yourself if that is worth it. I would not NORMALLY make a starter from dry, but that pack I wasn't sure if it was good or not. But, the results were surely good

 

[Gavin C]

1 lb of DME will make 4.5 liters of 1.040 SG starter wort.

With a useful starter size for a dry yeast pack to get any kind of appreciable growth rate being more than 2L I'd have to question the math there.

1lb of DME gets me roughly 2 starters. For me its $2 +time -v- $3.50 to $4
No benefit to my beer being the result.

A vigorous ferment does not equate with a healthy ferment. One does not exclude the other but the two things are not equivalent.

 

[eadavis80]

I don't make 2L starters. My beers are usually 1.040-1.060 tops and I use harvested yeast. I can usually get by with a 1L or 1.5L starter and am more than satisfied with my fermentations, but hey - if we have different opinions, that's no big deal. AS long as we're both happy with our beer, that's all that matters

 

[Gavin C]

Absolutely. i was simply questioning the math for a starter that could in theory be of use to grow yeast from a dry pack. That was all.

 

[TheMadKing]

Absolutely. i was simply questioning the math for a starter that could in theory be of use to grow yeast from a dry pack. That was all.

+1, there are already enough cells in a dry yeast packet to just metabolize all the sugars in a 2L starter, so you wouldn't get any actual cell growth. You'd basically just be "proofing" the yeast to ensure it's vitality and viability. That's certainly not a bad thing to do for peace of mind, but as others have said, is it really worth the time and effort?

 

[joshesmusica]

+1, there are already enough cells in a dry yeast packet to just metabolize all the sugars in a 2L starter, so you wouldn't get any actual cell growth. You'd basically just be "proofing" the yeast to ensure it's vitality and viability. That's certainly not a bad thing to do for peace of mind, but as others have said, is it really worth the time and effort?

Sure why not? Granted it was with a liquid vial, but one of the brulosopher contributors did a yeast cell growth starter vs a vitality starter, and the results were nearly identical at every stage.

Plus as I mentioned earlier, and you guys have shown with the proper starter size, if one harvests from a starter it will still be cheaper than just buying another pack, even if it is just barely cheaper. Especially if one is already doing a vitality starter.

I personally only do vitality starters, and have seen a difference in ferment times, even with dry yeast. I guess it's more comforting for me to see the beginnings of a krausen around 6 hours after pitch instead of about 20 hours after.

 

[Gavin C]

Sure why not? Granted it was with a liquid vial, .

Liquid not dry. A very different product. The same argument for a starter, (big or small) does not apply.

With dry yeast I am a big believer in following the simple user guidelines from the manufacturers, who have spent quite a bit of time money and research into developing a dry yeast that does not need nor benefit from a starter.

Two of the big benefits to using a dry yeast are.

• Simplicity
• Lower cost

Making an unneeded starter totally negates these benefits for me.

 

[moski]

Dude some people do a dry starter to try and skip a long lag phase and kick off fermentation fast. For most brews one properly hydrated pack is enough, all other variables taken care of. Of I'm over 1.060 I do a starter, 2l up to a gallon, esp for really high gravity wort. I am then confident I have enough cells to begin fermentation, growth phase done. I use filtered or spring water, fermaid, nutrients, stir plate, and aeration to maximize growth and the yeast are pitched at high activity.

I already have the stir plate, DME and stuff one hand from culturing yeast from bottles. Cost is negligible, time is insignificant as cumulatively it's less than 20min and saves $3-4.50 over "just toss in another yeast pack" per brew. For me it's cheap insurance. I've never had a stuck fermentation, lag start, funky or unintended flavors or odors. Just fast clean brews right on profile doing my job with the rest of the process.

 

[Gavin C]

Clearly some do make starters with dry yeast. My argument is not that no one does this. My argument is that for the OP's question i have yet to see/read any cogent argument for doing one.

Again it's the simplicity of a second pack if indicated for a lager or very high ABV or very large batch over making an enormous starter as would be needed to get any theoretical benefit with a dry yeast.

Cost of DME for a gallon starter with which a good growth rate could be had, time and energy spent to make it or cost of second pack of yeast.

By all means, folks will do what they prefer as with any hobby.

Based on the numbers of cells involved, the starter sizes needed, the shelf stability of a dry yeast, the cost of the product and the lack of any benefit over that more easily obtained with a second pack, the argument for making a starter with dry yeast simply does not present itself.

This is a discussion topic. Not rules etched in stone that no one may disobey. Just because a process is done doesn't make it a reason for doing it. Circular reasoning at it's finest.

 

[TheMadKing]

Yep 100% agree. You need a 3L - 4L starter to actually get cell growth from dry yeast. At that point, I think it's easier to just buy another packet instead of DME + time.

 

[podz]

I know this may sound like a stupid question but can/has anyone made a started using dried yeast? I will be doing a simple ale recipe but I have not been getting a very vigorous fermentation so am thinking about trying a starter to ramp it up a bit. I don't order wyeast here in Texas on summer months due to transport temps. Has anyone ever done this? If so what's the best procedure?

A few weeks back, I made a 5-gallon starter with apple juice, sugar and a pack of dried yeast that I did not rehydrate in advance. After 3 days, I split a little more than a gallon into each of four 5-gallon fermenters, added more sugar and apple juice.

I have used this same process about 20 times and it just travels like a rocket.

 

[TheMadKing]

A few weeks back, I made a 5-gallon starter with apple juice, sugar and a pack of dried yeast that I did not rehydrate in advance. After 3 days, I split a little more than a gallon into each of four 5-gallon fermenters, added more sugar and apple juice.

I have used this same process about 20 times and it just travels like a rocket.

What kind of beer were you making that was complimented by that much apple juice? Or a cider maybe?