Sparging - Am I doing it wrong???

[andy6026]

Well Jesus H. Christ Almighty - I just figured out that in my last 4 years of brewing I may be sparging wrong.

This is what I've been typically been doing -- I heat my sparge water up to around 168, I pour the entire thing into my cooler where all the grains reside, give it a mighty stir, vorlauf a few quarts out and slowly pour it back on top of the grains, and then I crank open the valve and watch it pour into my boil kettle. It tends to slow down on it's own a bit, so I prop the ass-end of the cooler up. Takes maybe 10 minutes or so to drain, and then I squeeze the heck out of the grains to get as much out as I can -- no pint left behind!

I just watched a video of some guy saying it takes him 60-90 minutes to sparge. Whaaaatttt??? "If you see little foamy bubbles come up, you're sparging too fast," he says. And here's me thinking, 'oh yeah, I know all about those foamy little bubbles!'

As you can tell I'm really not all that excited about potentially adding another hour and a half to each batch I do on a brew day. But I gotta admit, I'm no homebrew competition winner... Although I've brewed some very good batches, my average probably wouldn't even show in a contest.

Have I been doing it wrong???

 

[A2HB]

Fly sparging has to be slow, batch sparging like you do, you don't have to make it slow. I was just like you wondering if I was doing it wrong, then I learned from Denny Conn that you don't have have a long time sparging with the batch method. I did an experiment and my efficiencies were the same whether I let it take a long time to sit or did a quick stir and start draining. Saved an hour of time on my brew day since the switch.

 

[bucketnative]

Here's a great tutorial on batch sparging: http://dennybrew.com/

Step 5: "Completely drain the mash tun as fast as your system will allow."

 

[andy6026]

Well that's good news indeed. But I have to admit I'm still a little confused. I can see there being efficiency differences between batch and fly sparging, but a quick google search tells me that sparging too fast (I assume by whichever method) can lead to tannins and other off-flavours. Is this wrong, or are we wrong... or something else?

 

[Enemygod]

Here's a great tutorial on batch sparging: http://dennybrew.com/

Step 5: "Completely drain the mash tun as fast as your system will allow."

Great point. I would caution to not skip steps 3 and 4 though!

 

[wyowolf]

I do eBIAB and I just pour about a gallon or so of hot water over the grains after I raise them out to drain, about 10 min or so while the water heats to boiling temps...

 

[bucketnative]

Great point. I would caution to not skip steps 3 and 4 though!

Especially that part about directing the runoff into the kettle.

 

[Denny]

Well that's good news indeed. But I have to admit I'm still a little confused. I can see there being efficiency differences between batch and fly sparging, but a quick google search tells me that sparging too fast (I assume by whichever method) can lead to tannins and other off-flavours. Is this wrong, or are we wrong... or something else?

Yeah, that's wrong. Also, keep in mind that batch and fly sparging work on 2 different principles. Fly sparging is a process of rinsing the grain. You need to do that slowly. Also, because you are continually diluting the pH buffering ability of the grain, the pH can rise during runoff ;leading to possible tannin extraction. Batch sparging is a process of dilution, where you get all the sugar into solution at once and drain it off. There is no pH rise that will cause problems. For more info, see my website dennybrew.com

 

[andy6026]

ok, so would I be right in reading that the key difference between batch sparging and fly sparging is that in the batch sparge you completely drain the first runnings off first, whereas with fly sparge you don't. So in a fly-sparge, even though the runnings are trickling it out of the tun, the constant trickle into the tun keeps a near-constant level of liquid in the tun, and therefore running that out too fast could possibly throw off the pH of the wort and lead to possible tannin extraction... so as long you drain all of the first runnings into the kettle you're fine? Or have a missed something?

 

[Denny]

ok, so would I be right in reading that the key difference between batch sparging and fly sparging is that in the batch sparge you completely drain the first runnings off first, whereas with fly sparge you don't. So in a fly-sparge, even though the runnings are trickling it out of the tun, the constant trickle into the tun keeps a near-constant level of liquid in the tun, and therefore running that out too fast could possibly throw off the pH of the wort and lead to possible tannin extraction... so as long you drain all of the first runnings into the kettle you're fine? Or have a missed something?

Agreed except that I don't understand the bolded part

 

[GPP33]

ok, so would I be right in reading that the key difference between batch sparging and fly sparging is that in the batch sparge you completely drain the first runnings off first, whereas with fly sparge you don't. So in a fly-sparge, even though the runnings are trickling it out of the tun, the constant trickle into the tun keeps a near-constant level of liquid in the tun, and therefore running that out too fast could possibly throw off the pH of the wort and lead to possible tannin extraction... so as long you drain all of the first runnings into the kettle you're fine? Or have a missed something?

I THINK the key is that in a batch sparge the high Ph is only an issue for such a short period of time that tannin extraction isn't much of an issue. I too only take about 15 minutes to batch sparge, I usually drain, fill, drain, fill, drain.

 

[RM-MN]

Tannin extraction requires two factors, high pH and high temp. When you are batch sparging you don't have much to worry about high pH unless your sparge water is extremely alkaline. The other factor you have complete control over and is easy to avoid. Don't use hot water to sparge. It isn't necessary. You will get very little gain by using the hot water and by using cool water you avoid needing another pot to heat water in. Your grain bed will be saturated with hot water. Mixing in the cool water will heat it a considerable amount. The only downside is it will take a little longer to bring the wort to boil, a decent trade off for not having to heat anther pot of water and if you should spill it, the cool water will only make you wet, not burned.

 

[Denny]

I THINK the key is that in a batch sparge the high Ph is only an issue for such a short period of time that tannin extraction isn't much of an issue. I too only take about 15 minutes to batch sparge, I usually drain, fill, drain, fill, drain.

Why would a batch sparge be high pH at all? Once you get the pH adjusted for the mash it will remain stable through the sparge.

 

[Denny]

Tannin extraction requires two factors, high pH and high temp. When you are batch sparging you don't have much to worry about high pH unless your sparge water is extremely alkaline. The other factor you have complete control over and is easy to avoid. Don't use hot water to sparge. It isn't necessary. You will get very little gain by using the hot water and by using cool water you avoid needing another pot to heat water in. Your grain bed will be saturated with hot water. Mixing in the cool water will heat it a considerable amount. The only downside is it will take a little longer to bring the wort to boil, a decent trade off for not having to heat anther pot of water and if you should spill it, the cool water will only make you wet, not burned.

I use 185-190F sparge water and get a few points of efficiency boost from it. I also use room temp sparge water on my Grainfather and it works fine.

 

[A2HB]

Tannin extraction requires two factors, high pH and high temp. When you are batch sparging you don't have much to worry about high pH unless your sparge water is extremely alkaline. The other factor you have complete control over and is easy to avoid. Don't use hot water to sparge. It isn't necessary. You will get very little gain by using the hot water and by using cool water you avoid needing another pot to heat water in. Your grain bed will be saturated with hot water. Mixing in the cool water will heat it a considerable amount. The only downside is it will take a little longer to bring the wort to boil, a decent trade off for not having to heat anther pot of water and if you should spill it, the cool water will only make you wet, not burned.

Ok you just blew my mind with this post. So we don't even have to heat the water up for a batch sparging, we can just use cold water and it works the same? That is even better! Wow, you really do learn something new everyday

 

[Denny]

Ok you just blew my mind with this post. So we don't even have to heat the water up for a batch sparging, we can just use cold water and it works the same? That is even better! Wow, you really do learn something new everyday

Well, maybe room temp as opposed to cold, but yeah, in general that's true. Some people feel like using hotter water dissolves more sugar into it, but that doesn't happen until you hit the limit of solubility of the water you're using. But that doesn't happen til you hit a gravity of 1.300! If your gravity is under that using hotter water will not dissolve more sugar. I use 185-190 sparge water, but that's to eke out all the conversion I can, not to dissolve more sugar into it.

 

[RM-MN]

Ok you just blew my mind with this post. So we don't even have to heat the water up for a batch sparging, we can just use cold water and it works the same? That is even better! Wow, you really do learn something new everyday

As Denny mentioned above, you can gain a few points by using hot water but it's probably easier to use another quarter pound of base malt and skip heating the water.

 

[GPP33]

Why would a batch sparge be high pH at all? Once you get the pH adjusted for the mash it will remain stable through the sparge.

Once you have drained the first runnings your Ph will pretty much be that of the water you are introducing. You no longer have the wort there as a buffer, just the grains.

 

[ultra_cas]

Why use cold or room temp water? You'll have to heat it anyhow when you bring it to a boil after the sparge. Might as well get it heated and get a jump start during your hour long mash.

 

[Denny]

Why use cold or room temp water? You'll have to heat it anyhow when you bring it to a boil after the sparge. Might as well get it heated and get a jump start during your hour long mash.

Very true. You have to heat it at some point. But different people need different methods.

 

[kh54s10]

Why use cold or room temp water? You'll have to heat it anyhow when you bring it to a boil after the sparge. Might as well get it heated and get a jump start during your hour long boil.

Fixed that for you.

 

[doug293cz]

Why use cold or room temp water? You'll have to heat it anyhow when you bring it to a boil after the sparge. Might as well get it heated and get a jump start during your hour long mash.

Heating the sparge water requires a separate pot. So the choices are:

• Skip the extra pot, use unheated sparge water, and spend more time heating to boil
• Use an extra pot, heat the sparge water, and spend less time heating to boil

Both are valid choices.

Brew on

 

[GPP33]

Fixed that for you.

I think he had it actually.

 

[doug293cz]

Well, maybe room temp as opposed to cold, but yeah, in general that's true. Some people feel like using hotter water dissolves more sugar into it, but that doesn't happen until you hit the limit of solubility of the water you're using. But that doesn't happen til you hit a gravity of 1.300! If your gravity is under that using hotter water will not dissolve more sugar. I use 185-190 sparge water, but that's to eke out all the conversion I can, not to dissolve more sugar into it.

Cold water sparge gives the same efficiency as hot water sparge, if and only if, your conversion is 100% complete prior to adding the sparge water. If conversion is not complete prior to the sparge, then as @denny alluded to, hot sparge water will allow conversion to continue during the sparge, resulting in slightly higher mash efficiency. The gain is totally due to increased conversion efficiency. The lauter efficiency is the same for hot or cold sparge water.

Brew on

 

[kh54s10]

I think he had it actually.

I don't think so. You don't mash with cold water.....

There is not option on going cold or hot for the mash. There is with the boil and how long it will take to get it back to boiling after sparging with cold water.

 

[GPP33]

I don't think so. You don't mash with cold water.....

There is not option on going cold or hot for the mash. There is with the boil and how long it will take to get it back to boiling after sparging with cold water.

What? No one is talking about mashing with cold water.

I think you read his post a little to quick.......

 

[kh54s10]

Why use cold or room temp water? You'll have to heat it anyhow when you bring it to a boil after the sparge. Might as well get it heated and get a jump start during your hour long mash.

What? No one is talking about mashing with cold water.

I think you read his post a little to quick.......

I did not read it wrong. How can you sparge before you do the hour long "mash"

No one was talking about mashing with cold water, not me either. sSo then he must be talking of SPARGING with HOT water so it does not take so long to bring the BOIL up to BOILING temperatures.

I suggest you go back and read it again!

 

[ultra_cas]

Clarification: meant while the mash is being done at 150 - 155 or so, you can heat the sparge water. So, if you have the extra pot - the sparge water can be heated during the hour long mash.

But I see your point - if you fly sparge and don't have the extra pot, then yeah - guess your stuck with a room temp water sparge. Sorry to divert the conversation.

 

[Jtk78]

He's talking about heating the sparge water during the mash. I also believe he had it right.

I don't understand how you need another kettle. You will need a HLT, which can be a cooler, which is my setup.

8 gallon boil kettle with valve - heat mash water, move to mash tun (13 gallon converted cooler) and dough in. Once mashing, put sparge water in boil kettle and start heating and drain to HLT (10 gallon water cooler) once it gets to my temp.

1st running into boil kettle, fire up burner, sparge to pre-boil volume, and go.

 

[doug293cz]

He's talking about heating the sparge water during the mash. I also believe he had it right.

I don't understand how you need another kettle. You will need a HLT, which can be a cooler, which is my setup.

8 gallon boil kettle with valve - heat mash water, move to mash tun (13 gallon converted cooler) and dough in. Once mashing, put sparge water in boil kettle and start heating and drain to HLT (10 gallon water cooler) once it gets to my temp.

1st running into boil kettle, fire up burner, sparge to pre-boil volume, and go.

Change second pot to second vessel, and your process is covered. Still need an extra vessel to handle hot sparge water.

Brew on

 

[andy6026]

This thread took an interesting turn.

I have one pot (looking now into getting a second) and cooler for a mashtun. I usually do 2 batches back to back. The first batch I heat the sparge water shortly before the mash is done. After I drain everything (into buckets) I heat my strike water for the second batch, and start the second mash. Then my kettle is free to boil the first batch. The mash is done on the second batch usually before the first batch finished boiling, so I sparge my second batch with cold water.

I'm looking forward to getting a second kettle (and burner) so I can speed things along better. If I'm not right on the ball with having things ready at the right time then it can add more than an hour to a 2-batch brew day. ****, if I made another mash-tun as well then I could be doing 2 batches simultaneously! Well, I'd have to still stagger it a bit given I have one chiller, but you get the idea.

I heat my sparge water when the kettle is available because it gets my brew day going faster. If my kettle isn't available then I sparge with unheated water because it too gets my brew day going along faster.

 

[Denny]

This is pretty much all of my equipment....

 

[madscientist451]

I don't see any Ukuleles in the picture.....

 

[Denny]

I don't see any Ukuleles in the picture.....

I did ya a favor!

 

[Kent88]

I think I see Windows XP running on that computer.

I find ways to make brewing more complicated than it needs to be, and one of my biggest issues with how batch sparging is explained is that many equations indicate that the brewer needs to sparge until a certain pre-boil volume is attained. I see this as being a huge problem if the beer is supposed to have a very low OG or a very high OG, it could lead to over or under sparging. Many experienced batch spargers would probably say that I'm making more work for myself, but usually after I collect wort from sparging once (draining the tun twice), I get out my refractometer and I start taking samples to make sure I'm not over/under sparging.

As far as the debate on how hot sparge water should be, I usually try to keep it around mash temperature and it seems to work ok.

 

[Denny]

I think I see Windows XP running on that computer.

I find ways to make brewing more complicated than it needs to be, and one of my biggest issues with how batch sparging is explained is that many equations indicate that the brewer needs to sparge until a certain pre-boil volume is attained. I see this as being a huge problem if the beer is supposed to have a very low OG or a very high OG, it could lead to over or under sparging. Many experienced batch spargers would probably say that I'm making more work for myself, but usually after I collect wort from sparging once (draining the tun twice), I get out my refractometer and I start taking samples to make sure I'm not over/under sparging.

As far as the debate on how hot sparge water should be, I usually try to keep it around mash temperature and it seems to work ok.

Indeed it is! It's a $25 Goodwill special! It's very difficult to under or over sparge in batch sparging. If a grist bill is very large or very small, though, it becomes a candidate for no sparge.

 

[Kent88]

@Denny so you recommend if someone wants to brew a high-gravity beer like a doppelbock or a barleywine that the brewer just goes with no-sparge and while designing the recipe just anticipate something like 50% efficiency?

If I am looking at the anticipated OG of a beer I want to make what are those thresholds where I should be thinking "You know, maybe no-sparge is the way to go here"? I assume some of it depends on the system so maybe it would be better to ask what numbers you use.

 

[doug293cz]

@Denny so you recommend if someone wants to brew a high-gravity beer like a doppelbock or a barleywine that the brewer just goes with no-sparge and while designing the recipe just anticipate something like 50% efficiency?

If I am looking at the anticipated OG of a beer I want to make what are those thresholds where I should be thinking "You know, maybe no-sparge is the way to go here"? I assume some of it depends on the system so maybe it would be better to ask what numbers you use.

The maximum possible pre-boil SG is obtained with a no-sparge process. In this case the pre-boil SG equals the SG of the wort in the mash. Turns out that the max SG of the wort in the mash is just a function of the mash thickness (water to grain ratio), for most reasonable grain bills. Braukaiser gives a table of max SG vs. mash thickness here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Measuring_conversion_efficiency. If your target pre-boil SG is about the same as the max possible mash SG, then you are pretty much forced into a no-sparge process.

If the thought of leaving behind a bunch of sugar in the mash offends you, then consider doing a partigyle. This is just separating your second runnings, and making a second, smaller beer with them.

Brew on

 

[MaryB]

I fly sparge and in the 38 years I have been brewing (on and off, used to share a huge system with a friend, we brewed for 4 families) I have never ran into a tannin situation using the amount of water I need to reach my kettle volume for the boil. Could I maybe sparge the grain bed for a smaller beer or a starter? Probably but with a 6 hour brew day that is just more work I don't need! I sparge to reach the 13 gallons I need(11 gallon batch) to compensate for boil off.

 

[Denny]

@Denny so you recommend if someone wants to brew a high-gravity beer like a doppelbock or a barleywine that the brewer just goes with no-sparge and while designing the recipe just anticipate something like 50% efficiency?

If I am looking at the anticipated OG of a beer I want to make what are those thresholds where I should be thinking "You know, maybe no-sparge is the way to go here"? I assume some of it depends on the system so maybe it would be better to ask what numbers you use.

My experience with those 2 styles in particular...doppelbock isn't so high in OG that I'd do a no sparge. BW is. It's a judgement call that everyone has to make for themselves. After years of doing so sparge BW, I got a bigger mashtun so now I can sparge when I do it. So it's gonna depend on your particular equipment setup. My no sparge efficiency typically runs around 65%.