Souring a split batch

[shoengine]

I have a plan for an experimental batch that will revolve around fruit. I want to make a 6 gal batch of beer and split it into thirds, and one of these I want to sour. My original thought was to brew the 6 gal, ferment, kill the yeast, rack onto fruit and condition, then split, and sour 2 gal separately with lacto. However as I have been doing some reading, it looks like I have to use the lacto first, then pitch yeast, etc. Is that the case?

My goal is since I have the same base wort, to try three different beers. I am completely unfamilar with souring though so I need some help on this one.

 

[cactusgarrett]

So, if you use lacto late, that means your base beer will need minimal to no hops. If you're intending to use lacto in only one of the three 2-gal batches, that would mean the other two would have no hop presence at all.

Why do you want to kill the yeast after initial fermentation?
What do you intend to do with the other two 2-gal portions?

If you're looking for 6 gallons of fruited base beer to play with, AND one of those to be lacto soured, here's what i would do:

1. Collect 6 gallons wort (5 IBU or less)
2. Split into three
3. To the intended sour one, add lacto plantarum (after a quick boil) and allow to sour for a few days. THEN either pitch sacc and continue or boil first, get some more IBU, then continue. If you don't boil, you could dry hop, which would effectively shut down the lacto.
4. To the two non-sour ones, either boil as usual to get IBU or ferment with sacc and dry hop to get IBU/perceived IBU.
5. Add fruit to any of these towards the end of fermentation, if not after.

However you go, if you're looking to get lacto sourness from the same wort, and you want the non-sour portions to be "normal" beers (with appropriate bitterness/IBU) you're looking at some extra work.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I mostly agree with Garrett, for the sour portion I would drain off 2 gal wort right as it comes to a boil, chill it, and add L. plantarum and yeast together, with fruit added later.
This leaves you the freedom to hop the other 4 gal.

L plantarum does not need to be used first; it can sour right along with the yeast if the temperature is 65-100°F and there are no hops.

Why, but also how would you kill the yeast?
What sort of fruit product are you using (fresh whole vs canned puree etc)?

 

[shoengine]

First, thanks for the detailed responses guys. I'll answer the questions first.

For the yeast, post fermentation, maybe kill is the wrong word. I didn't want to referment with the addition of fruit, as I figured that would end up leaving just tartness with non of the sugars behind and eliminate the fruit. I was looking at using campden or pasteurizing, whichever would be most effective.

The fruit will be skinned, diced and previously frozen peaches.

So this is completely experimental. The genesis of this is I wanted to try to make a good pepper beer, and a peach wheat seemed to me a fun base to try with. So my three batches would be:
1. Base, no adjuncts
2. Base, with habeñero
3. Base, soured

I didn't want six gallons of one of those, but they could easily all be from the same mash, so it seemed to be a time saving idea initially. Plus I've never fruited a beer. Or made a beer with peppers. Or soured a beer.

I like the derived process @RPh_Guy and @cactusgarrett . I will plan on mashing everything together (I didn't plan on any hops in the mash), and then separating at that point. It does surprise me that the lacto and the sacc should be pitches at the same time. Won't they compete?

So, am I offbase with the yeast/fruit additions interaction?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Splitting after the mash is good.
I'm not sure how much risk of DMS there would be with a very short boil. I either boil at least 30 min or not at all.

Lacto/Sacc are perfectly fine fermenting together. Wort is rich in nutrients so both can grow well. Lacto utilizes very little sugar so there's no competition for that.
The only interaction is that low pH will slow the yeast fermentation to some degree and mute yeast flavors. You can ferment toward the upper end of the yeast's range to compensate for speed if you want.

I don't really have much experience with fruit beer. I would let it ferment though --
1. I don't like sugary sweetness in beer.
2. I have logistical concerns with how to pasteurize the beer AND I'd be worried about the wild yeast on the peaches fermenting it. FYI Campden does not inhibit yeast (at a reasonable dose).
3. There will be plenty of fruit flavor if you use an adequate amount of peaches.
4. Carbonation after stabilization is only possible with forced CO2 and I bottle.

Hope this helps

 

[cactusgarrett]

I also suggest letting the fruit ferment. For one, it's way more effort to kill the yeast to prevent it. More importantly, though, I think the secondary fermentation (of the fruit) would give a balance to the beer. If it wasn't fermented, I feel like it'd be overly-sweet.

You're doing a LOT of firsts concurrently. You might want to reign it in a bit so as not to overextend yourself. But for now, read the Milk the Funk wiki on the pertinent areas related to sour beer.
Lacto
Fruit

 

[shoengine]

I also suggest letting the fruit ferment. For one, it's way more effort to kill the yeast to prevent it. More importantly, though, I think the secondary fermentation (of the fruit) would give a balance to the beer. If it wasn't fermented, I feel like it'd be overly-sweet.

You're doing a LOT of firsts concurrently. You might want to reign it in a bit so as not to overextend yourself. But for now, read the Milk the Funk wiki on the pertinent areas related to sour beer.
Lacto
Fruit

Thanks for the resources. I'll read through them today.

Splitting after the mash is good.
I'm not sure how much risk of DMS there would be with a very short boil. I either boil at least 30 min or not at all.

Lacto/Sacc are perfectly fine fermenting together. Wort is rich in nutrients so both can grow well. Lacto utilizes very little sugar so there's no competition for that.
The only interaction is that low pH will slow the yeast fermentation to some degree and mute yeast flavors. You can ferment toward the upper end of the yeast's range to compensate for speed if you want.

I don't really have much experience with fruit beer. I would let it ferment though --
1. I don't like sugary sweetness in beer.
2. I have logistical concerns with how to pasteurize the beer AND I'd be worried about the wild yeast on the peaches fermenting it. FYI Campden does not inhibit yeast (at a reasonable dose).
3. There will be plenty of fruit flavor if you use an adequate amount of peaches.
4. Carbonation after stabilization is only possible with forced CO2 and I bottle.

Hope this helps

I have about four pounds of peaches. I've seen that being in the ball park for what folks use, but I am still reading up on that part. This is all experimental so I'm not really worried about a time component. And I have enough space in my fermenter for some stacked buckets!

 

[shoengine]

@RPh_Guy , I'm having a hard time finding L plantarum. Should I be looking in vitamin stores for this?

Edit: this is what I could find

https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-probiotics-l-plantarum-inner-bowel-support-30-veg-drcaps

 

[RPh_Guy]

Swansons L. plantarum tablets are available on amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BZ3YWXC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

GoodBelly L. plantarum liquid is available in a lot of stores.
https://goodbelly.com/where-to-buy/

Other probiotics have this species. In particular I see Renew Life Ultimate Flora in a lot of big box stores like Wal-Mart and other chains.
https://www.renewlife.com/ultimate-flora-extra-care-probiotic-30-billion

Omega and The Yeast Bay both sell blends with L. plantarum.
Omega: https://www.ritebrew.com/product-p/837605.htm (and other stores online and local homebrew stores)
TYB: https://www.theyeastbay.com/wild-yeast-and-bacteria-products/lactobacillus-blend (and other stores)

...All of these work well. Store refrigerated.
Cheers

 

[Calder]

You want a quick sour! Sour the wort before adding yeast; alcohol slows/stops lacto. If you add yeast at the same time you are looking at a year to sour (if it ever does), whereas, souring first, the souring is done in a week.

Lacto doesn't like hops either. Make wort (no hops), pasteurize (bring to boil and then cool; no need for extended boil), add lacto, keep somewhere between 90 and 110 F for a week, taste to ensure it is soured enough, then pitch yeast (about 2 to 4X the amount you would normally pitch as the low ph is not a good environment for the yeast). You can boil to kill the lacto if you want before adding the yeast, but it is not necessary. You can also boil and add hops at this same time.

What lacto? Wyeast, or White Labs make some, use some probiotic tablets that have live lacto, or even yogurt culture. You only need a couple of probiotic tablets per gallon

 

[shoengine]

Thanks for the info.

I brewed my six gallon batch today. Boiled with no hops for about 15 minutes, then split 2 gallons off into a bucket and then boiled the remainder with a scaled hop charge. The sour batch is being stored at 36F until I get the lacto.

After souring the wort can be boiled? Are the same considerations for balancing gravity with a hops charge the same as a normal batch?

 

[RPh_Guy]

alcohol slows/stops lacto.

No, it does not. Not at all, for any Lacto species.

If you add yeast at the same time you are looking at a year to sour

Maybe weeks to months for some Lacto species, but L. plantarum sours in a matter of days -- before the yeast finish fermenting.

Try out this species next time you make a sour. You don't know what you're missing.

keep somewhere between 90 and 110 F for a week

This is why we recommend L. plantarum. It sours quickly at room temperature. 24-48 hours at 65-100°F is all it needs.

Wyeast, or White Labs make some

I'd recommend to avoid these like the plague. White Labs bacterial cultures are frequently contaminated with yeast and Wyeast bacterial cultures are generally poor at souring (probably why you recommend leaving it a week).

After souring the wort can be boiled? Are the same considerations for balancing gravity with a hops charge the same as a normal batch?

If you pitch Lacto first with no yeast, you can boil the sour wort to kill the Lacto. This is frequently done with the wort left in the kettle so the bacteria never touch the cold side equipment. The term is kettle sour.
In my opinion, there's no advantage to taking this approach. Bacteria can be sanitized just like yeast, and even if you miss some, they won't do anything to a hopped beer (plantarum is very hop-sensitive).

Either way, if you decide to add hops (after souring), I'd suggest not adding much (if any) bitterness. Sourness and bitterness completely clash, especially in a fruit beer because the bitterness also clashes with the fruit.

Cheers

 

[shoengine]

Thanks. I'll finish my experiment and post back with the results.

 

[shoengine]

Ugh, it's so ugly, and it smells so bad. Why did I do this?

The pH looks right, so I tossed in some US-05. Not much activity but something. Smells slightly better today.

It has what looks like white, moldy Legos floating in it. I wasn't brave enough to taste it pre-fermentation.

 

[RPh_Guy]

That's mold. I would dump it.

 

[shoengine]

Damn!