Sour

[DoubleAught]

I recently kegged a Raspberry lambic I brewed 14 months ago. It's very good and everyone who tries it seems to like it. It has the defining Brett taste to it but isn't the least bit sour. How does one get the puckering sour taste I spend so much money on in commercial versions? Sorry if it's a basic question, brewed tons of beer but I'm still wet behind the ears with sours.

 

[KeystoneHomebrew]

What kind of bugs did you pitch? Brett Lambicus is that textbook sour cherry pie creator, but is not present in every blend you can buy or pitch from a bottle.

 

[tasq]

How did you mash? Turbid, Cereal, Single infusion?

What did you pitch?

 

[DoubleAught]

Single infusion, I pitched Wyeast 5526

 

[Calder]

Single infusion, I pitched Wyeast 5526

The problem is you didn't brew a Lambic. I have no doubt it is an excellent Brett beer, but to get the sour Lambic qualities you also need to pitch Lacto and pedio with the Brett.

I won't argue whether Brett gives you any souring or not, but any that it may contribute is very little in comparison to the sourness generated by the lactic acid bacteria.

Did you really get the 'Rustic' Brett flavors, or were they more fruity? Brett used alone creates a completely different beer than if used in conjunction with a regular Sacc yeast.

 

[DoubleAught]

I'm showing just how much I don't know, seems I need to do a lot of reading. Thanks for the info

 

[DoubleAught]

Would it be recommended to pitch wyeast 3278, or individual packets of bret, lacto, and pedio? I've been holding onto a recipe I downloaded from the AHA site from the May/June '12 Zymurgy magazine that is a 100% Brettanomyces Farmhouse and want to make sure I do this one right. The recipe is specific on the grain bill but when it comes to the bugs it just says to pitch Brett. Since the 3278 has yeast I'm thinking it wouldn't still qualify for a 100% Brett beer?

 

[Calder]

Would it be recommended to pitch wyeast 3278, or individual packets of bret, lacto, and pedio? I've been holding onto a recipe I downloaded from the AHA site from the May/June '12 Zymurgy magazine that is a 100% Brettanomyces Farmhouse and want to make sure I do this one right. The recipe is specific on the grain bill but when it comes to the bugs it just says to pitch Brett. Since the 3278 has yeast I'm thinking it wouldn't still qualify for a 100% Brett beer?

What are you trying to make?

A 100% Brett farmhouse ale is a great beer. I've made a number of them, they are quick (a couple of months), have a really distinctive fruity Brett flavor, and are very refreshing. To make one, you have a simple grain bill (Pilsner + Wheat+maybe some Vienna or other malty grain) and a Large pitch of Brett yeast. NO Lacto, or Pedio, or Sacc yeast. Using the Lambic Blend will not create this beer. If you use the Lambic blend, you will still probably make a really good beer, but it will be different, it will be sour, it will have some 'Rustic' Brett type flavors, and it will take a year to make.

When pitching Brett on it's own, you need to pitch a large quantity (large starter) and it acts like a normal yeast and give fruity type flavors.

When Brett is pitched with regular sacc yeast, the sacc yeast dominates, leaving no O2 for the Brett, and it gets stressed. I don't know the specifics, but being stressed and forced to reproduce anaerobically creates different flavors (sometimes called barnyard flavors). These are not as bad as they sound when combined in a complex beer. When Brett is used this way it takes a long time to work on the scraps left by the sacc, and will continue to develop flavors for about 18 months.

When you get to Lambics and Flanders beers you have the added complexity of Lactic acid bacteria (Lacto and Pedio) which are even slower than the Brett and lower the PH of the beer creating the sourness you associate with lambic.

Then there is the effect of acetobacter (vinegar) which is a part of a good Lambic, but you really want to try and avoid (too much and you are not going to drink it).

Hope this helps some.

Sure, use the Lambic blend, it will make a good beer, but you are not going to get the beer described in Zymurgy.

 

[DoubleAught]

Thanks again for the advice, couple of questions. I currently have one vial of WLP 653 and when you say I need a large pitch of Brett I'm assuming a standard 2L starter would be enough, or larger? I use a stir plate for 24 hrs on standard starters, would that suffice here as well or longer?

Here is the grain bill for Zymurgy:

100% Brett Farmhouse,

6lb 2 row
2.25 lb munich
12 oz Rye
12oz wheat
8oz golden naked oats
8oz spelt malt

thanks for your help

 

[eastoak]

Thanks again for the advice, couple of questions. I currently have one vial of WLP 653 and when you say I need a large pitch of Brett I'm assuming a standard 2L starter would be enough, or larger? I use a stir plate for 24 hrs on standard starters, would that suffice here as well or longer?

Here is the grain bill for Zymurgy:

100% Brett Farmhouse,

6lb 2 row
2.25 lb munich
12 oz Rye
12oz wheat
8oz golden naked oats
8oz spelt malt

thanks for your help

the lambic blend would not be the best choice for a farmhouse brett beer, does not mean it won't be a good beer though. i would brew that grain bill, ferment with wyeast 3711 then hit it with WLP 645 after fermentation is complete or near complete. it won't get sour but you will get desirable complexity from both of those yeasts.

 

[smokinghole]

Brew a double sized batch if you can. Use either 100% Brett in one half or saison yeast and Brett (can still be a fairly quick beer) then in the other half do a Lambic blend like that wyeast blend. I make a large batch if Lambic yeast/bacteria fermented saison at least once a year. They are great. If using 3711 and Brett I would pitch it together.

 

[DoubleAught]

Emailed White Labs and they recommended 2 vials of Brett in a 2L starter for a week before pitching. We'll see how it goes.