So annoyed with sluggish fermentations

[kanzimonson]

I brewed a wit and a strong saison from the same grist. 1.050 and 1.065 respectively. Both are one week into fermentation and only half attenuated. I make appropriate starters for both, used O2, pitched at 64*, and fermented a few days at 65-68.

When I saw signs of slowing down, I raised the wit to 70-72 where it's been sitting a couple days. For the saison, after day 3 I continued to raise up into the high 80s where it still sits.

The wit strain is Wyeast 3944 Belgian Witbier. The saison got 3724 Belgian Saison and then on day 2 I added an active starter of 3711 French Saison.

Checked the gravity on both yesterday and they're right around halfway. I partly expected some difficulty with the saison but I'm very surprised at the wit. Both are still fermenting but at a medium-low rate.

I have the time to wait on them and don't need to pitch a finisher strain, but it's just a little worrying. I've been seriously brewing for 5 years and have never had anything like this happen.

 

[bja]

It's only been a week.

 

[kanzimonson]

Most average strength beers are done in a week. It's not a good sign, at least for the wit.

 

[bja]

Most average strength beers are done in a week. It's not a good sign, at least for the wit.

Really? I don't think it's safe to assume that every fermentation will be done in a week. I've seen them take anywhere from 3 days to 3 weeks.

 

[kombat]

OP: You're measuring gravity with a hydrometer, not a refractometer, right?

bja: If your average-gravity fermentations are taking 3 weeks, then you're underpitching, underaerating, or somehow otherwise stressing your yeast. An average strength beer, well-aerated, and with an appropriately-sized pitch of healthy, active yeast, reach final gravity in a week. Any additional time is just conditioning. You may continue to see the airlock bubble indefinitely. That's not an indication of active fermentation, but more likely simply offgassing with variations in ambient temperature and barometric pressure.

 

[kanzimonson]

80% of my experience is with 1968 London ESB which I admit is a quick-fermenting yeast, but I've also done more than a few fermentations with Trappist strains, Hefeweizens, American ales, and a few other English ones.

With consistent pitch rate, temperature regimens, and O2 I find the process to be very similar regardless of strain (for beers that are around 1.060 or less). Lag for 18 hours, 3-4 days of high activity, 3-4 days of slowing down, maybe a couple days of conditioning, do a diacetyl force test, and into the keg it goes. I keg most of my beers in 6-10 days and they're clean and attenuated. Hell, I've had 1.110 barleywines finish in 10 days, not to say they didn't need a good bit of conditioning time.

Like I said, I'm not too surprised by the saison - I thought the French strain would keep it active but even two days in may have been too late. I guess my wit yeast just wasn't treated very well. The pack was about two month old when I got it but I built it up with two steps of 1.5L starters, plus another pint of wort the morning of brewday to get it active.

 

[bja]

bja: If your average-gravity fermentations are taking 3 weeks,

I'm not asking for advice.

 

[kanzimonson]

OP: You're measuring gravity with a hydrometer, not a refractometer, right?

bja: If your average-gravity fermentations are taking 3 weeks, then you're underpitching, underaerating, or somehow otherwise stressing your yeast. An average strength beer, well-aerated, and with an appropriately-sized pitch of healthy, active yeast, reach final gravity in a week. Any additional time is just conditioning. You may continue to see the airlock bubble indefinitely. That's not an indication of active fermentation, but more likely simply offgassing with variations in ambient temperature and barometric pressure.

Yep, hydrometer. After seeing that both were half attenuated, I went and checked my tap water just to see if something was up with the hydrometer but it was right at 1.000 (maybe half a kerjigger above)

 

[paperairplane]

I use a lot of US05 and most are done under 4 days - I condition them longer, but primary fermentation is done.

 

[kombat]

I'm not asking for advice.

Maybe you should. Maybe that's why your fermentations are taking 3 weeks when they should only take 1.

 

[bja]

Maybe you should. Maybe that's why your fermentations are taking 3 weeks when they should only take 1.

I said I've seen them take 3 weeks. I didn't say they were mine.

Unsolicited advice can be extremely annoying.

 

[kombat]

I wasn't offering advice. I was posting facts. Advice usually starts with "You should..." Like this: "You should work on developing a thicker skin."

 

[bja]

I wasn't offering advice. I was posting facts.

So it was just disguised as advice?

Advice usually starts with "You should..." Like this: "You should work on developing a thicker skin."

OK. "You should not offer unsolicited advice".

 

[dobe12]

bja: If your average-gravity fermentations are taking 3 weeks, then you're underpitching, underaerating, or somehow otherwise stressing your yeast. An average strength beer, well-aerated, and with an appropriately-sized pitch of healthy, active yeast, reach final gravity in a week. Any additional time is just conditioning. You may continue to see the airlock bubble indefinitely. That's not an indication of active fermentation, but more likely simply offgassing with variations in ambient temperature and barometric pressure.

Agreeing with the non-advice here. Fermentations shouldn't take 3 weeks. I don't care what style you're brewing or yeast strain you're using. 3 weeks means there is a serious problem.

OP: Wyeast 3724 is a notoriously slow yeast. Often craps out around 1.030 or so. That's why I never use it. Why fight with a yeast strain when there are other fantastic Saison strain options (3711, Belle Saison, etc)? The 3711 you pitched should have kicked into high gear very quickly. That yeast is a monster. Attenuates fast and thoroughly.

For the Wit yeast, I'm surprised it's still not done attenuating. You may need to look somewhere in the process. Is it possible your thermometer is off and you mashed at high temps, creating a less fermentable wort?

 

[kombat]

So it was just disguised as advice?

We're threadjacking here, but I'm re-reading my post and I'm really struggling to see how you're interepreting it as advice. It's literally just a series of factual statements. You're being waaaay too sensitive.

 

[jalmeida]

How old was the yeast? Was it 1st general from the brew shop? Could have got a bum batch.

If you are certain the aeration is there then and ferment temp is correct I can only imagine the issue being yeast related.


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[kanzimonson]

How old was the yeast? Was it 1st general from the brew shop? Could have got a bum batch.

If you are certain the aeration is there then and ferment temp is correct I can only imagine the issue being yeast related.


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The wit yeast was about two months old when I bought it. My stirplate was occupied with the saison yeast, but I made a 1.5L starter, hit it with pure O2, shook frequently for a day, then crashed. Decanted and repeated with another 1.5L. On the morning of brewday I decanted and poured in one more pint of starter. The first starter was a little slow to start but the second was active pretty quickly, and the final pint suspended the yeast within a couple hours.

Referencing some earlier questions, the reason I used the Belgian Saison was because of my own stupidity. I was having a quick conversation with a friend and he got confused over which saison yeast he had recently used (French) and which is the finicky one. I stupidly didn't do my own research and went with the Belgian. It was a three-day old pack when I got it, and it should be noted that I made a proper sized starter (it was something like 1.5L on a stirplate for 5.5gal at 1.065).

When I realized my mistake in strain selection, I went out and bought a pack of the French to get going. It was maybe one month old. I put it on a stirplate with a pint for about 6 hours. When it started to show some real activity I pitched it into the batch. That was at about the 36 hour mark, and the batch had been actively fermenting maybe 12-18 hours already.

I can't imagine that the environment was too inhospitable when the French yeast went in, but maybe since the batch was probably already at a high density of yeast then maybe the French didn't get a lot of replication.

Lastly, my thermometers were all calibrated with a thermapen and I mashed at 150. The saison is also 10% granulated sugar.

 

[jalmeida]

Did you rouse the yeast? If not, then I would give that a try.


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[kanzimonson]

Yeah, I've given a few swirls.

 

[podz]

Maybe you should. Maybe that's why your fermentations are taking 3 weeks when they should only take 1.

Word. With up to 9% ABV, 7 days is finish time for a healthy ferment. If it goes beyond that then you need to investigate why your yeast are starving.

 

[jalmeida]

Yeah, I've given a few swirls.

Might need a good stir with a sanitized spoon. Some of these strain turn into glue once they fall out and just swirling might not be enough.



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[jalmeida]

Word. With up to 9% ABV, 7 days is finish time for a healthy ferment. If it goes beyond that then you need to investigate why your yeast are starving.

A little searching here shows that slow ferments(3+weeks)with saison yeast is common. I can't speak first hand because I am not a saison fan and have not made one. If this was 1056 I would be pretty concerned. That **** is fast.


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[jeremy0209]

Maybe you should. Maybe that's why your fermentations are taking 3 weeks when they should only take 1.

Absolutely!! Assuming proper treatment of the yeast, most fermentations should take 10 days....tops. Also, I don't mind "unsolicited" advice. The day I think I'm so smart that I don't need to listen to what anybody else has to say about brewing is the day my mash tun goes to the landfill.

 

[Bobbybob]

Please stop threadjacking. Have a pm war instead.