Sigh - stupid Q from new AG brewer. All grains into the mashtun for 60 min?

[wantonsoup]

I've done several extract batches and understand that process, and am going to switch to all grain for my next brew, and I'm doing this one: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/denny-conns-wry-smile-rye-ipa-84515/

I have a REALLY basic question. I'm used to adding the 'specialty grains' for about 20 minutes at 170° or whatever the recipe calls for, then discard the grains. With an AG recipe, like the one above, do I add ALL of the grains into the mashtun and let the whole shebang sit for the 60 minutes? (In this case, add 11 lbs Pale Malt 2 Row, 3 lbs Rye Malt, 1.25 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt, 8.0 oz Cara-Pils, and 8 oz Wheat Malt) Or is there some way to know that some grains get 60 minutes, and some get less time in the mashtun?

Assuming all grains get the full 60 minute hot tub treatment, I'm curious why in an extract recipe it usually calls for so much less time with the grains?

Thanks.

 

[NateLTB]

Yes, put all of the grains sit in the mash tun for 60 minutes (or however long the mash should be) and then sparge (either batch or fly) when your mash time is up.

Good luck on your first AG! You'll be hooked afterwards.

Cheers!

 

[kh54s10]

All you grains go in for the full 60 minutes. You will need to heat your strike water about 10- 15 degrees hotter than the desired mash temperature. So you should try will adding 165 or 166 degree water then take a temperature reading. You can add a little hot water or cold to get the proper mash temp. Then close the tun and wait for an hour.

 

[wantonsoup]

Thanks guys. Appreciate the help.

 

[brewkinger]

To answer the other half of your question:
When you steep the grains in an extract batch, you are only gaining flavor and color characteristics for your beer. There is little to no fermentable sugars to convert.

When these same grains are added to the mash, the same thing is occurring, but it is occurring at the same time as fermentable sugars are being converted by all the other grains.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[charliehorse]

The other thing that I'd do is either get some Iodine from the drug store to get an idea how long it take for YOUR system to convert all of the carbohydrates to sugar (or you can do what I do and say to heck with it and always mash of 90 minutes).

 

[rmyurick]

Normal procedure is to add all grains at once. However, I've read some instances where people recommended adding, say 1 oz of black malt at the end, like for a Vienna Lager.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

Well just to throw in a wrench here. There are some that advocate cold steeping when using dark roasted grains, as in black, chocolate or roasted barley to name a few. The theory behind it is that with these grains all the starches have already been converted to sugar by the roasting process so mashing is not needed for the conversion unlike the base type malts. The reasoning is that by reducing the amount of boil time for these specialty grains you can reduce the astringency and in cases off flavors that are sometimes common. You still benefit from the color and flavoring just reduced astringency. Has anyone else tried this process? I think it made a difference in my last Pitch Black Stout. It makes sense but I am into my Saison/Belgian phase now so haven't revisited it.

 

[jro238]

Well just to throw in a wrench here. There are some that advocate cold steeping when using dark roasted grains, as in black, chocolate or roasted barley to name a few. The theory behind it is that with these grains all the starches have already been converted to sugar by the roasting process so mashing is not needed for the conversion unlike the base type malts. The reasoning is that by reducing the amount of boil time for these specialty grains you can reduce the astringency and in cases off flavors that are sometimes common. You still benefit from the color and flavoring just reduced astringency. Has anyone else tried this process? I think it made a difference in my last Pitch Black Stout. It makes sense but I am into my Saison/Belgian phase now so haven't revisited it.

So you would steep in cold water then add to the last 15 min of boil (or whatever time late in the boil)? I've never tried it. I think any reduction in astringency would be due more to the cold steep as opposed to the reduced boil time. I know this is what has been found when adding hot vs cold brewed coffee to beer.

Also per adding small amounts of dark grains right at the end of mash. This is a good way to achieve color without getting too much roast flavor (a black ipa is a great example of when one might do this).

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

Yes the point is to utilize the color and flavor profile and not the astringency by minimizing the boil time of the addition. If I remember correctly there are two types of melanodions, complex and simple. The simple one would be the aroma/flavor of the grain, the complex ones would include the tannin's and the astringency. The simple ones are handled by the cold 24 hour steep while the complex are extracted by the longer boiling times. I am no expert but it seems to make a difference.

And lo and behold - what did I find on my facebook page but a link to an article about cold steeping. http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/lets-brew/cold-steeping-getting-the-most-out-of-dark-grains/

 

[wantonsoup]

TBH I don't see the point in cold steeping just to add color without much of the flavor associated with dark grains (the chocolate, coffee, bitter notes) which is what the article implies you'd cold steep for. I care about flavor and not so much what color it is.

 

[evanmars]

From the article:
The idea was to find a way to extract the favorable flavors from dark specialty grains, but leave behind the harsh characteristics, giving the brewer a greater level of control over the color of the beer.
So, apparently, it does both.

 

[wantonsoup]

OK I need coffee. I read the damned article and missed the good stuff Thanks for posting that, it's something I may try.

 

[insanim8er]

All you grains go in for the full 60 minutes. You will need to heat your strike water about 10- 15 degrees hotter than the desired mash temperature. So you should try will adding 165 or 166 degree water then take a temperature reading. You can add a little hot water or cold to get the proper mash temp. Then close the tun and wait for an hour.

This is really vague and can set you up for missed temps. The temp depends on a lot of variables:

Grain quantity (1 gallon batch vs 10 gal or big beer or session...etc)
Grain temp
Mash tun material
Pre heated tun or no?
Time it takes to stir your mash
Etc...

Instead of just winging it and going 10-15 degrees as suggested, use a calculator on line.

I always calculate each batch. I always preheat my tun, and I'll go two to three degrees hotter than the recommended temp to allow for stirring the grain. Once it's all in, I'll stir until it's about one degree hotter or dead on (just depends on what in making because sometimes I can lose a degree during the hr mash) then close the lid.