Should I dilute before additions?

[lupulinaddict]

So I have been trying to learn how to work with my water without posting. It seems like when I get a grasp on it, I read a little more, and then I get more confused. If anyone wouldn't mind helping this is where I'm at. It seems like my water has more bicarbonate, calcium, chloride, and sodium than most reports I have been reading on here. I tried using Brewers friend (I have to dl excel on my comp for the others) and I have to add, what seems like to me, a lot of gypsum to get the ph lower. I think since my bicarbonate and calcium is high I should dilute the water first before adding anything? Would that be the first step you guys advise? Also, I read a thread where someone said you can't use your cities report because it's just an average of tests, but the thread died. Can someone explain why that is? It seems like the water would change yearly so an average would be a good starting point if I didn't buy a complete test kit yet. Thanks water gods! View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1457103143.737655.jpg

 

[Yooper]

It looks like the water has been wildly variable- how do you know what the chloride or bicarbonate level is today? Or tomorrow?

 

[lupulinaddict]

When I got the report from the city that was my first question too. I was wondering how everyone handles the averages. Should I be conservative on the additions in case of a "high" day? It seems that wouldn't work either because they all won't be high at the same time so I would still be incorrect adjusting so I came back to using the average. See what I mean? I keep confusing myself.

 

[Anyhowe]

Wow. Just curious. What city is that? Thanks.

 

[lupulinaddict]

Modesto, ca

 

[Anyhowe]

Modesto, ca

Ah this makes some sense then given the reduction in surface water you are getting due to the drought and the variable blending of the additional ground water they are suplimenting. Thanks.

 

[ajdelange]

That's a pretty impressive set of data! Your mean alkalinity is 141 and the standard deviation is 59. Dilution is a great way to get rid of an ion but often overlooked is the fact that it also gets rid of variation. Dilute what comes out of your tap with 9 parts RO water and you will have water with average alkalinity of 14 and standard deviation 5.9. That you could certainly live with. OTOH 4:1 would give you an average of 28 with standard deviation of 11.8 and you could probably live with that too. To my way of thinking if you need 20 gallons of liquor and need to bring in 16 - 18 gal RO water you might as well go all the way and bring in 20 gal RO water. You can now set you alkalinity anywhere you want it (0 usually) and the variation is gone. Same is true of all the other ions.

 

[RyanKC]

Wow! i am also from Modesto and i have just start getting into water chemistry for my brews (what are the odds). I think i have a good grasp on the theory but lack the experience. I sent a water sample to Ward labs. i also bought the Lamotte Brew lab to test my water throughout the year because i had the same concern of water ion concentrations constantly changing because of where we live. Things i have relied on Heavily up to this point are : How to Brew chapter 15 (palmer's nomograph really helped me) , Palmer's water chemistry spreadsheet (found on his website), Various lectures and podcast on youtube. It's weird because lately i have been wanting to connect with other brewers in my area. Are you part of a club? Anyways, its really cool to know someone so close to home who is also in the same mind frame as me.

 

[lupulinaddict]

That's a pretty impressive set of data! Your mean alkalinity is 141 and the standard deviation is 59. Dilution is a great way to get rid of an ion but often overlooked is the fact that it also gets rid of variation. Dilute what comes out of your tap with 9 parts RO water and you will have water with average alkalinity of 14 and standard deviation 5.9. That you could certainly live with. OTOH 4:1 would give you an average of 28 with standard deviation of 11.8 and you could probably live with that too. To my way of thinking if you need 20 gallons of liquor and need to bring in 16 - 18 gal RO water you might as well go all the way and bring in 20 gal RO water. You can now set you alkalinity anywhere you want it (0 usually) and the variation is gone. Same is true of all the other ions.

Thanks ajdelange, I will take your advice. I'll start with going all RO and play from there so I can start with some consistency and build from there. The data came from the city. The lady was super nice. They're still compiling the data from last years testing, so haven't released the water report yet. She asked what I needed and gave me all the raw data from this year instead of going off of the 2014 report.

 

[lupulinaddict]

Wow! i am also from Modesto and i have just start getting into water chemistry for my brews (what are the odds). I think i have a good grasp on the theory but lack the experience. I sent a water sample to Ward labs. i also bought the Lamotte Brew lab to test my water throughout the year because i had the same concern of water ion concentrations constantly changing because of where we live. Things i have relied on Heavily up to this point are : How to Brew chapter 15 (palmer's nomograph really helped me) , Palmer's water chemistry spreadsheet (found on his website), Various lectures and podcast on youtube. It's weird because lately i have been wanting to connect with other brewers in my area. Are you part of a club? Anyways, its really cool to know someone so close to home who is also in the same mind frame as me.

Hey Ryankc! Yeah pretty cool to find another brewer in modesto on here....and one that wants to get ahold of our brew water! I have another buddy in town that brews and we are both trying to learn about changing our water. Same thing, we have been reading, but no real experience yet. I've only been adding Camden tablets for about a year or so because for a while there it seemed like I could almost taste and smell chlorine when I brushed my teeth! Last brew I added some acid malt to work on the ph. I don't have a meter yet, but I have some test strips I bought with some stuff on cl. The strips have been proven to be misleading, but it made me feel like I did something, and the color of the sparge water and mash did change to the color the calculator said it should be. I'd be curious to see what the ward lab reports and how close it is to what the city says the average is if you don't mind keeping me updated. I was looking at that Lamotte kit before, how do you like it?

 

[trentm]

Thanks ajdelange, I will take your advice. I'll start with going all RO and play from there so I can start with some consistency and build from there. The data came from the city. The lady was super nice. They're still compiling the data from last years testing, so haven't released the water report yet. She asked what I needed and gave me all the raw data from this year instead of going off of the 2014 report.

Here in Monterey CA, our district gets its water from 4 different sources. Our QC person is also very good to work with. She told me the reports are not very useful as they take their samples from the source water before blending with what's on hand. So the report never matches what is sent to our taps. Your district may be doing the same as they took 3 tests on March 11 each with fairly variable results. I suspect these were from different sources. The good news is (at least here in Monterey) RO water from a reliable water store is 30 cents pre gallon and DI water is 50 cents.

 

[RyanKC]

Hey Ryankc! Yeah pretty cool to find another brewer in modesto on here....and one that wants to get ahold of our brew water! I have another buddy in town that brews and we are both trying to learn about changing our water. Same thing, we have been reading, but no real experience yet. I've only been adding Camden tablets for about a year or so because for a while there it seemed like I could almost taste and smell chlorine when I brushed my teeth! Last brew I added some acid malt to work on the ph. I don't have a meter yet, but I have some test strips I bought with some stuff on cl. The strips have been proven to be misleading, but it made me feel like I did something, and the color of the sparge water and mash did change to the color the calculator said it should be. I'd be curious to see what the ward lab reports and how close it is to what the city says the average is if you don't mind keeping me updated. I was looking at that Lamotte kit before, how do you like it?

Ya, no prob. Here is the report i got from ward labs on 03/01/16:

I do have an issue with this report. The Cations and Anions are not balanced very well. I may be wrong about this but i believe that is a problem. I did one test with the lamotte and the results are as followes:
Sodium: 91 ppm
Calcium: 92 ppm
Magnesium: 7.2 ppm
Total Hardness: 260 ppm
Sulfate: around 30 ppm
Chloride: 130 ppm
Alkalinity (CACO3) : 240 ppm
(note: the ward sample and lamotte test where done at different times and after a good rain)

After plunging the lamotte data into a couple of spreadsheets, i found that the Cations and Anions were balanced.
With all the testing rusults in, i calculated i may need to dilute with 75% DI water. So i guess 100% RO water would be easier? But im not so sure about that. I thought i had a good plan of attack until i got on HBT and read AJdelang's brewing water primer. I think i may need to do more research on the make up of RO Water. Some Questions I have are:
What's the PH?
Does it have any Alkalinity?
Do i still need to test it with the Lamotte?
I know im missing something...

P.S. definitely get a ph meter.

 

[lupulinaddict]

Ya, no prob. Here is the report i got from ward labs on 03/01/16:

I do have an issue with this report. The Cations and Anions are not balanced very well. I may be wrong about this but i believe that is a problem. I did one test with the lamotte and the results are as followes:

Sodium: 91 ppm

Calcium: 92 ppm

Magnesium: 7.2 ppm

Total Hardness: 260 ppm

Sulfate: around 30 ppm

Chloride: 130 ppm

Alkalinity (CACO3) : 240 ppm

(note: the ward sample and lamotte test where done at different times and after a good rain)



After plunging the lamotte data into a couple of spreadsheets, i found that the Cations and Anions were balanced.

With all the testing rusults in, i calculated i may need to dilute with 75% DI water. So i guess 100% RO water would be easier? But im not so sure about that. I thought i had a good plan of attack until i got on HBT and read AJdelang's brewing water primer. I think i may need to do more research on the make up of RO Water. Some Questions I have are:

What's the PH?

Does it have any Alkalinity?

Do i still need to test it with the Lamotte?

I know im missing something...



P.S. definitely get a ph meter.

I was thinking same thing about the RO water. I could only think of the windmill express brand and the glacier brand for fill your own stations around town. One, if not both, said minerals added so I called last week both places to try to get a water report, just to get some numbers to play with even if they are minimal. Windmill I just got a recording, so I left a message. Glacier I talked with a guy, and said he would have to take my info and submit it to someone else and they would email me the report. I haven't heard back from either. There is that aquas station, I'm on the other side of town so that would be a hassle for me, we could try too. We used to get water there when I was a kid and I bet they would have info more readily available. It's over off of Kansas and emerald.

 

[ajdelange]

The cation/anion imbalance is a measure of the quality of the analysis. A difference of 0.7 isn't that great for sure but it isn't that terrible either.. It is somewhat disturbing that the error is in this case greater than the whole sulfate content.

In the Lamotte test you do not actually measure sodium. You add up all the other ions and assume the imbalance is because you didn't measure sodium and assign the difference from 0 to sodium. A Lamotte report therefore balances automatically even though it can be (and probably is because of the low precision of the tests, especially sulfate) as great or greater than Ward's errors.

As to the other questions: RO water only has the very tiny alkalinity of the water itself, 1.5 - 2.5 mEq/L depending on how you define alkalinity, plus whatever leaks through the membrane.

Because it has very low alkalinity its pH tends to be heavily influenced by the CO2 in he air. It is often in the high 5's or low 6's. You do not need to measure it and you don't need to analyze RO water unless you suspect the machine is not performing as it should or that the operator is adding minerals back into the permeate for flavor or the system is being operated at very high recovery at the expense of rejection.

 

[RyanKC]

After I posted my response, I went back to my lamotte calculations and it dawned on me that the ions have to balance, because...like you said, of the way sodium is calculated. Thanks for the confirmation

It is somewhat disturbing that the error is in this case greater than the whole sulfate content.

What does that mean?

 

[ajdelange]

Just that if the analyst had completely bobbled the sulfate analysis and reported 0 for sulfate your cation/anion numbers would be 10.078/10.214 indicating an imbalance of 0.135 from which you would conclude that this was a pretty good report.