secondary fermentation

[craftyMick82]

I was wondering if secondary fermentation would be alright in a bottling bucket with a spigot... i am planning on moving on to secondary fermentation brews and i need to buy another bucket. I thought having a bottling bucket would serve as an easy way to get the beer out when complete. Of course I still need to rack the brew.... Hmmmm. What would any of yall suggest.

 

[patthebrewer]

Personally, I would recommend you skip the secondary all together. The less amount of time your beer is exposed to O2 the better. Leave it in the primary for longer and let the yeast clean up after it self, safe and cozy under it's protective layer of CO2.

 

[AnOldUR]

If your purpose for using a secondary is to get your beer off the yeast (fermentation is complete) you'll want to use a vessel with a minimum amount of surface area above the beer. A carboy filled to the neck is the most common way to accomplish this. Don't be fooled by the CO2 blanket myth.

If you're adding fermentables or doing actual secondary fermentation, a bucket is fine.

 

[patthebrewer]

Don't be fooled by the CO2 blanket myth.

Not a myth at all, actually can't believe you said thatThe real myth is the need to get your beer off your yeast. Some believe this is necessary to avoid autolysis (yeast death). While autolysis is real and can produce off flavors, in practice it is extremely rare in the short times typically used for ale brewing.

 

[craftyMick82]

Personally, I would recommend you skip the secondary all together. The less amount of time your beer is exposed to O2 the better. Leave it in the primary for longer and let the yeast clean up after it self, safe and cozy under it's protective layer of CO2.

so then what would i use secondary for then?

 

[prpromin]

If you needed to age a beer for a long time (barleywine, Imp Stout, etc), then you might choose a secondary. Also, many people add fruit to beer - and other stuff - in secondary. I don't use one myself. I find that most things, including dry hopping, can be done right in the primary vessel.

 

[tonyscha]

so then what would i use secondary for then?

This

If you're adding fermentables or doing actual secondary fermentation, a bucket is fine.

I typically use the secondary (carboy) to get a clearer beer (because when I bottled, it seems like I stir up the sediment) and to make room in my primary bucket.

 

[patthebrewer]

so then what would i use secondary for then?

It's not necessary to use a secondary at all, it's an extra step. You can add all your additions to the primary. There isn't any fermenting happening in a secondary anyway, as you leave almost all of your yeast behind after the transfer anyway. If you bottle condition, you can use that second bucket to mix all your priming sugar together in one place giving more uniform carbing per bottle. Aging should be done either in the bottle or keg. Save your self the step

 

[Yooper]

Not a myth at all, actually can't believe you said thatThe real myth is the need to get your beer off your yeast. Some believe this is necessary to avoid autolysis (yeast death). While autolysis is real and can produce off flavors, in practice it is extremely rare in the short times typically used for ale brewing.

But that co2 "blanket" IS a myth! Sure, during active fermentation the yeast are putting off so much co2 that nothing else much can impact the beer, but once fermentation ends, and especially if the beer is racked, the Ideal Gas Law and the law of physics do apply.

If the co2 was actually much heavier than the rest of the air, and didn't dissipate out to the atmosphere, we'll all die in our beds at night due to co2 poisoning.

if you ever look at any infection threads in this forum, the only ones tend to be in a) a beer in a bucket with wide headspace for a lengthy time, or b) "secondary", after fermentation has slowed.

 

[kombat]

I typically use the secondary (carboy) to get a clearer beer (because when I bottled, it seems like I stir up the sediment)

Wouldn't you stir up just as much sediment when you racked it to a secondary?

 

[AnOldUR]

It's not necessary to use a secondary at all, it's an extra step. You can add all your additions to the primary. There isn't any fermenting happening in a secondary anyway, as you leave almost all of your yeast behind after the transfer anyway. If you bottle condition, you can use that second bucket to mix all your priming sugar together in one place giving more uniform carbing per bottle. Aging should be done either in the bottle or keg. Save your self the step

I normally transfer soon after fermentation is complete to harvest fresh yeast for my next batch.

Dry hopping beer in the primary produces different results. Some prefer it, but I think there's a cleaner hop flavor resulting from using a secondary. Same thing with other secondary additions (wood, fruit, spices . . .) It's a personal preference not a rule.

The only reason there would be no fermentation in the secondary would be if there are no fermentables. It's got nothing to do with the amount of yeast.

So, we should tie up a keg for a year or more while bulk aging a Barleywine?

And you may want to do some brushing up on Graham's Law of Diffusion.

 

[Ilan34]

I've got a Porter that's been in primary for 19 days. I want to add oak chips, bourbon, and vanilla beans. I was going to rack it to secondary tomorrow and let it sit for 12 days before bottling.

Would you guys recommend that, or would my additions be ok in primary. Keeping in mind that my primary is a carboy, so there would be done splashing if I added my additions there.

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[tonyscha]

Wouldn't you stir up just as much sediment when you racked it to a secondary?

The difference between primary and secondary (in carboy) sediment is surprising (at least in my setup). It might not be for everyone, but it has helped the amount of sediment that makes it in the bottle and clarity.

 

[Yooper]

I've got a Porter that's been in primary for 19 days. I want to add oak chips, bourbon, and vanilla beans. I was going to rack it to secondary tomorrow and let it sit for 12 days before bottling.

Would you guys recommend that, or would my additions be ok in primary. Keeping in mind that my primary is a carboy, so there would be done splashing if I added my additions there.

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I often dryhop in primary (different than AnOldUR) but I would never add oak and vanilla beans to the primary. Part of that is my old winemaker heritage, I'm sure- but if you add things that drop to the bottom to your primary, like oak and vanilla beans, it would be covered in yeast. In cases where you want to extract flavor from an addition, I'd definitely put the new additions into a carboy and rack into it.

Oak chips will generally float a bit, unless they've been saturated with the bourbon first, then settle to the bottom. The vanilla beans will sink right away.

 

[Clonefan94]

But that co2 "blanket" IS a myth! Sure, during active fermentation the yeast are putting off so much co2 that nothing else much can impact the beer, but once fermentation ends, and especially if the beer is racked, the Ideal Gas Law and the law of physics do apply.

If the co2 was actually much heavier than the rest of the air, and didn't dissipate out to the atmosphere, we'll all die in our beds at night due to co2 poisoning.

if you ever look at any infection threads in this forum, the only ones tend to be in a) a beer in a bucket with wide headspace for a lengthy time, or b) "secondary", after fermentation has slowed.

I'm not exactly sure what the "blanket" myth is in brewing terms, but CO2 is definitely more dense than Oxygen. not a lot, somewhere around 1.4 times if I remember correctly from college.

The big thing is, any messing with it, lifting the lid, sloshing it around, disturbs those molecules and mixes them back up. We aren't talking differences like mercury and water, it's a slight difference. If you don't disturb it at all, it's very likely that the CO2 will settle below the "air".

The reason we don't all die from CO2 poisoning, is that it's close enough in density, that convection currents, wind, just basic movement will keep everything mixed up. But CO2s density can kill people, just look up Lake Nyos in Cameroon and see what a CO2 "blanket" can do on a large scale.

Sorry, my post sounded kind of dicky, that's not what I meant it to be. I just started rambling. I am intersted in what the "blanket" myth is for brewing though. Is it that CO2 is heavier, therefore always settles on the beer, even if no source of CO2 is present, because yeah, once it's disturbed, it's gone and you've just got regular air in there.

 

[AnOldUR]

But CO2s density can kill people, just look up Lake Nyos in Cameroon and see what a CO2 "blanket" can do on a large scale.

When initially introduced to an environment a heavier gas will drop, but it then begins the diffusion process and mixes with any other gasses in the system. Even in the absence of outside disturbances gasses will mix.

 

[Clonefan94]

When initially introduced to an environment a heavier gas will drop, but it then begins the diffusion process and mixes with any other gasses in the system. Even in the absence of outside disturbances gasses will mix.

Makes sense. I guess that's why I didn't really understand the myth.

 

[Ilan34]

I often dryhop in primary (different than AnOldUR) but I would never add oak and vanilla beans to the primary. Part of that is my old winemaker heritage, I'm sure- but if you add things that drop to the bottom to your primary, like oak and vanilla beans, it would be covered in yeast. In cases where you want to extract flavor from an addition, I'd definitely put the new additions into a carboy and rack into it.

Oak chips will generally float a bit, unless they've been saturated with the bourbon first, then settle to the bottom. The vanilla beans will sink right away.

Cool, thanks Yooper. That was my original line of thinking. I have about 2.7 gallons that I'll be transferring to another 3 gallon carboy. I'm also planning on boiling an ounce of sugar and racking on top of that working under the theory that it will create a small layer of CO2, since I'll have a decent amount of headspace.

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[Yooper]

I'm not exactly sure what the "blanket" myth is in brewing terms, but CO2 is definitely more dense than Oxygen. not a lot, somewhere around 1.4 times if I remember correctly from college.

The big thing is, any messing with it, lifting the lid, sloshing it around, disturbs those molecules and mixes them back up. We aren't talking differences like mercury and water, it's a slight difference. If you don't disturb it at all, it's very likely that the CO2 will settle below the "air".

The reason we don't all die from CO2 poisoning, is that it's close enough in density, that convection currents, wind, just basic movement will keep everything mixed up. But CO2s density can kill people, just look up Lake Nyos in Cameroon and see what a CO2 "blanket" can do on a large scale.

Sorry, my post sounded kind of dicky, that's not what I meant it to be. I just started rambling. I am intersted in what the "blanket" myth is for brewing though. Is it that CO2 is heavier, therefore always settles on the beer, even if no source of CO2 is present, because yeah, once it's disturbed, it's gone and you've just got regular air in there.

Oh, I've seen people on this forum say things like 'don't worry about headspace- the co2 blanket will protect the beer'. That's true, very short term, but long term that c02 "blanket" disperses, and relatively quickly as gasses seek equilibrium. And a wide headspace, like a bucket, is a bad idea for secondary as a result. Partly it's because of the way gasses behave, but also it's due to oxygen permeability of plastic and so on.

Even in a glass carboy with an airlock, and with the wine totally topped up, there is some oxygen contact. Even the water in an airlock is a vector for the transmission of gasses. We're getting far beyond the scope of this discussion in this topic, but there is this really cool study done by the folks at Better Bottle that discusses oxygen permeability of fermenters, and even things like the bungs and airlocks. It's eye opening to people who believe in this imaginary "co2 blanket".

I don't have the link handy, and I'm on my way out the door, but it's definitely worth googling for or if somebody else remembers that study and the results and could post a link, that would be great!!!!

 

[bob1852]

http://www.better-bottle.com/technical.html

http://www.better-bottle.com/pdf/ClosuresOxygenPassageStudy.pdf

 

[bob1852]

That was common sense to delete your post.

 

[Clonefan94]

Oh, I've seen people on this forum say things like 'don't worry about headspace- the co2 blanket will protect the beer'. That's true, very short term, but long term that c02 "blanket" disperses, and relatively quickly as gasses seek equilibrium. And a wide headspace, like a bucket, is a bad idea for secondary as a result. Partly it's because of the way gasses behave, but also it's due to oxygen permeability of plastic and so on.

Even in a glass carboy with an airlock, and with the wine totally topped up, there is some oxygen contact. Even the water in an airlock is a vector for the transmission of gasses. We're getting far beyond the scope of this discussion in this topic, but there is this really cool study done by the folks at Better Bottle that discusses oxygen permeability of fermenters, and even things like the bungs and airlocks. It's eye opening to people who believe in this imaginary "co2 blanket".

I don't have the link handy, and I'm on my way out the door, but it's definitely worth googling for or if somebody else remembers that study and the results and could post a link, that would be great!!!!

Great information, thanks. I guess this opens another question for me then, what about storing long term in a keg then? Is there any chance of oxygen permeability through the seals at all? Or will you be safe having purged the majority of O2 from the keg?

 

[Yooper]

Great information, thanks. I guess this opens another question for me then, what about storing long term in a keg then? Is there any chance of oxygen permeability through the seals at all? Or will you be safe having purged the majority of O2 from the keg?

A keg is probably THE best place for a beer long term. Or wine, too, I suppose. It's totally opaque, so no light at all. There is limited headspace- very little for 5 gallons, and if it's purged with c02, little "air" in there (but some). Just like in a wine bottle, the wine will still have a wee bit of oxygen contact over the minute headspace over time.

Beers that are aged, even in a bottle long term don't necessarily "suffer" from oxidation. Often, beers like barleywine have a tiny bit of oxidation apparent (so do some red wines aged long) and it's more of a pleasant "sherry" flavor that goes so nice with that beer style.

Many people will say things like "I left my beer in a bucket for 6 months and there are NO signs of oxidation!" Well, that's not true. Sure, the beer might taste great but of course there would be signs of oxidation however small. That's not unpleasant, necessarily. It could start as a slight "brandy" flavor in early oxidation, or a wee bit of "sherry" flavor. That's important to note. Just because someone doesn't perceive it doesn't mean it's not there to a trained beer judge.

Also, beer ages slower at cooler temperatures. A beer that may have some inadvertent oxidation will last longer at fridge temperatures or cellar temperatures than room temperature.

THE biggest flaw I see in homebrews in competition are oxidative in nature. Most homebrews I've judged display signs of oxidation (so do many commercial beers). It's just the nature of the beast. Many people think that oxidation means "cardboard" flavor. That's true, but that's only in extreme cases and I've only had "stale, musty, cardboard" one in all of the beers I've judged. Most of the time it's a bit metallic in darker beers, or a "sherry" flavor, or a bit of darkening, etc.

 

[craftyMick82]

Wow, thanks to everyone. This is definitely going to help.

I like how this thread has turned into class chemistry/mythbustsrs debate. Good stuff.

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