Scottish ale - crystal malts vs. caramelization

[erikpete18]

So, trying to put together a scottish ale recipe and it appears there are two well-used ways to get that nice, malty flavor required. The first is to use one or a couple kinds of crystal malt (just 60L, or a combo of 40L and 120L for instance). The second is to just mash a base malt with an additional malt or two (biscuit, roasted, vienna, etc.) and caramelize a portion of the first runnings to get that same malty goodness.

Question is, has anyone tried both ways and found one to be any better? I could see the crystal malt being far more repeatable, but I could also imagine the caramelization resulting in a far rounder flavor as you develop a little bit of everything. From what I understand most of the resulting sugars should be along the sames lines, but I might be way off in that regard.

I'm sure I'll get around to trying both ways at some point, but thought I would see if there's a consensus as to a better route to go with off the bat. Thanks in advance!

-Erik

 

[OLDBREW]

you have to do a reduction boil of the first part of the frst runnings to get the proper profile. adding different crystal malts will never give you the same flavor.

 

[erikpete18]

Good to hear, I kinda wanted to try that anyways. Now we've just got to see how its going to turn out!

 

[SumnerH]

you have to do a reduction boil of the first part of the frst runnings to get the proper profile. adding different crystal malts will never give you the same flavor.

I've had very good luck with this, but you need to reduce it a lot more than you think. The first time I boiled 1.5 gallons down to 2 cups or so, and it was a pretty good beer--the 2 cups looked dark, thick, and syrupy, and the beer had a nice caramelly/smoky thing going on. But it wasn't enough for a really great scottish ale. Next time I'm going until it's almost thick enough to look like it's about to burn.

Be more aggressive than you think.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I agree with above although I've heard it associated more with Scotch ale than Scottish. Yields a different aroma too.

 

[erikpete18]

Ok, so you're saying really get it down almost to the point of actual caramel, rather than just boiling it hard and hoping for some caramelization in the liquid. I might have to try my hand first at some LME and water and see what kind of flavors I can get.

I agree with above although I've heard it associated more with Scotch ale than Scottish. Yields a different aroma too.

You know I've seen both scotch and scottish and assumed they were interchangeable, with scotch really only being used for strong scotch ales. How different are the two descriptions?

 

[passedpawn]

I've had very good luck with this, but you need to reduce it a lot more than you think. The first time I boiled 1.5 gallons down to 2 cups or so, and it was a pretty good beer--the 2 cups looked dark, thick, and syrupy, and the beer had a nice caramelly/smoky thing going on. But it wasn't enough for a really great scottish ale. Next time I'm going until it's almost thick enough to look like it's about to burn.

Be more aggressive than you think.

My experience, exactly.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

You know I've seen both scotch and scottish and assumed they were interchangeable, with scotch really only being used for strong scotch ales. How different are the two descriptions?

That's the distinction I've seen; Scotch for wee heavies and Scottish for all the 'shilling' beers.

 

[usmclar1]

This is a very interesting topic. What would be the procedure for making an extract Wee Heavey using the reduction technique? Or is that even possible?

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

This is a very interesting topic. What would be the procedure for making an extract Wee Heavey using the reduction technique? Or is that even possible?

Same thing I would imagine, make a high gravity wort and boil the crap out of it. When I did my last Wee Heavy I used extract to help get some of my gravity. I had one pot boiling the first runnings from the mash, another pot boiling the second runnings plus the DME, and a third pot boiling the last runnings. The bad thing is I don't know how much caramelization each kettle contributed.

 

[downinit]

This is a very interesting topic. What would be the procedure for making an extract Wee Heavey using the reduction technique? Or is that even possible?

I would suggest using about 3 pounds of DME in 1.5 gallons, then reducing this till it gets thick. Then add this "caramel" to your boil. Plan on taking 2-3 hours to reduce to the proper thickness.

This reduction (or kettle caramelization) is what gives the wee heavy its characteristic dark fruit flavors. There is no other way to achieve the strength of these flavors -- other than doing what the Scottish brewers do, a 20? hour boil.

 

[humann_brewing]

I would suggest using about 3 pounds of DME in 1.5 gallons, then reducing this till it gets thick. Then add this "caramel" to your boil. Plan on taking 2-3 hours to reduce to the proper thickness.

This reduction (or kettle caramelization) is what gives the wee heavy its characteristic dark fruit flavors. There is no other way to achieve the strength of these flavors -- other than doing what the Scottish brewers do, a 20? hour boil.

What if you were doing a 11g all grain batch. Do you think you could start off the brew day by boiling x amount of water with x amount of DME down to x amount while you were mashing grains and then boiling and by the time it was down to the right amount, putting it in with the rest of the batch.

Would this work? How much should I do for 11g into the fermenters?

Same start with 3g of water and 6lbs of DME boil down to a quart or something?

This would just be going on a spare turkey fryer while the rest of the batch is going and hopefully time it right to toss in toward the end of the boil.

Using DME instead of first runnings would basically allow for a longer boil to reduce it even more.