Saison thoughts/feedback

[epateddy]

Third attempt at a Saison and while I like this latest one, the finish is still a bit too tart. Is it the flavoring hops? The yeast? Looking for suggestions on how to tone that down a tad.

Here goes:

5.5 lbs Belgian Pilsner
3.5 lbs German Vienna
1 lb. Torrified Wheat
--------
60 min: 0.5 oz. Magnum
15 min: 1 oz. Saaz
10 min: 1 lb. Dextrose
5 min: 0.5 oz. Mosaic
0 min: 1 oz. Sorachi Ace
--------
WLP566 Belgian Saison

Fermented @ 85 degrees

OG 1.054
FG 1.004

6.6% ABV
IBU 28
SRM 4

Thoughts?

 

[epateddy]

Wow...no love for Saisons?

 

[Quaker]

Did you pitch at 85? I pitch around 64 which is admittedly cool to some and let it naturally warm up. If it's in winter I may use a heat wrap to sustain it in the 70s. If it's summer, a 10 gallon batch may get to 80 on its own, and I won't hold it back. But I don't force it up there.

The second thing you might drop is the Sorachi Ace.

I'd recommend brewing the next batch, pitching cool, let it warm. If it starts cooling before it's finished, then start directly warming it. Leave the Sorachi Ace out. Don't substitute anything in its place. If you think it's missing it once finished fermenting, then go ahead and dry hop with it or another hop.

Your grist looks fine. I haven't put Mosaic in a saison, but I can't see it being the complaint.

I'm on my 7th batch of saison which has been incrementally dialed in. Batches 5 & 6 were finally the same. #7 just got a hop swap to experiment again and less than 2oz of caraaroma only for color. I had a thread on it a while ago, my SiMaiYa Saison, but I think I quit updating on the 3rd go of it.

 

[badlee]

I love Sorachi Ace,but could easily see it giving you something unwanted in the tart-ish region.
I just did a Saison quite similar to yours:
35%pils
35%vienna
20%wheat
10% table sugar
OG 1.059
FG 1.004 With Belle Saison pitched at 23c and let her rip.
My only hops were Mosaic, 70ish IBUs in the last 20 mins,nothing at 60.
Bloody great.
Maybe try that same recipe,pitch cooler as per Quaker's advice and let it go where it will,and sub Mosaic for all of your hop additions apart from the Magnum.
You may well love the bugger!

 

[epateddy]

Thanks for the thoughts/replies.

Quaker - I pitched around room temp (68), placed it in the insulated ferm chamber and set the heat wrap to 80. So it did warm up, probably quickly. I'm a big fan of Sorachi but had a hunch it - combined with the yeast - may contributing to the over-tartness. Will try another go without Sorachi.

Badlee - All Mosaic would also be another interesting experiement.

Was thinking of doing another batch with the same recipe and split it up to ferment with the two different White Labs Belgian Saison Yeasts (I & II), and Wyeast's French Saison. Any other yeast candidates worth experimenting with?

 

[Callacave]

I think it's more of a function of your quick ramp to 80. I tend to doubt that Sorachi Ace is giving you a tartness, but maybe the lemon/dill thing you can get from Sorachi is upping the perception of tartness?

Another big thing is your water. You didn't mention if or how you treat it. Are you adjusting your mash pH? That can be a big contributor.

 

[badlee]

https://badleebrewed.wordpress.com/2015/03/20/saison-de-mosaic-tasting/

 

[unclebrazzie]

...the finish is still a bit too tart. ...

Tart? Going by your recipe, you shouldn't have any tartness whatsoever. Tartness (if I'm using the same definition as you) borders on acidity and I see nothing in your recipe which could lead to any of that.

Can you describe the taste for me? I wonder if we're talking about the same thing here...

 

[joshesmusica]

in the book Experimental Brewing, they mention that with the saison, that Drew has had the best results by getting the pitch temp down to 64-64F and then letting it slowly free rise to ambient that is around 75-80F.

I know you said you basically tried that, but i would possibly think about try to get closer to his numbers, and then slowly letting it rise, not forcing it to 80 almost immediately. is it possible you got too much of some certain types of esters and phenols that combined weirdly from such a quick rise in temp?

 

[epateddy]

Appreciate the additional suggestions. Would be interesting to try this one again and apply no additional heat above, say, 65 - allowing for that free rise.

I may not be describing the "tartness" correctly either. Grabbing one right now to see if I can provide a better description. Please hold....

Definitely has a lemony aroma, but it's not overwhelming. The flavor is on the sweet side. There is definitely some tartness too it. Not a 'pucker your lips' kind of tartness but certainly more pronounced than I was going for. Is it possible that it's too much Sorachi? I wouldn't think it would have such a significant impact on the flavor being added so late.

 

[unclebrazzie]

You may be getting a hint of tartness from the torrefied wheat, come to think of it. At about 10%, it's likely to make a mark.
Wheat beers can display a certain lemony freshness which does border on tartness, so maybe it's just that.

 

[kanzimonson]

I've gotten some tartness from the Belgian Saison strain - try the French and see what you think.